Another Perspective
Why the Palestinians Don’t Want a State
Diplomatic niceties notwithstanding, the reasons are pretty obvious.
President Barack Obama will soon be entering the lion’s den of Middle East politics with the same conviction that has guided all his predecessors — that the solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict lies in the Two-State Solution, leading to the early establishment of a Palestinian state.
The received wisdom has it that the Palestinians wish above all things to have a state of their own, but that their fervent wishes are frustrated by Israeli delaying tactics, such as endless arguments over West Bank settlements, security fences, water rights, and the like.
While the Israelis probably do not want a Palestinian state on their borders, an entity that could easily become Hamastan II (and yet another missile launching platform), there is increasing evidence that the Palestinians themselves are of two minds about the prospect of their own statehood.
The first piece of evidence is the unchallenged observation that Palestinian leaders have rejected or sabotaged every proposal for statehood since 1947. In that year the Palestinians rejected the UN-sponsored division of the former British mandate into Jewish and Arab states on the grounds that they did not want to share Palestine with the infidel Jews. Instead of developing trheir own state, they tried through armed conflict to eradicate the nascent Jewish state. Their leaders took this big step just two years after the end of the Holocaust; and, guided by Hitler’s associate Haj Amin Al-Husseini, their implicit goal was to continue the slaughter. But if you start a war of politicide plus extermination you had better win it; otherwise, like Hitler, or Tojo, or the Palestinians of 1948, you will very likely end up with a bombed-out wasteland, or — in the Palestinian case — as a defeated rabble of landless refugees.
The Palestinian leaders did not draw the obvious conclusions from what they call their “Naqba,” their catastrophe. Instead, the next time a state was practically handed to them, they again turned it down, in favor of war with the Jews. Thus, when Clinton and Barak, reviving the stalled Oslo Accords of 1994, made Arafat an offer he couldn’t refuse — 95% of the West Bank, control of the Temple Mount, border adjustments, etc. — he refused it, while giving an ultimatum that only a thoroughly defeated Israel could accept: the resettlement of some five million “refugees” within the boundaries of the Jewish State. No diplomatic pause to negotiate this new demarche: just “take it or leave it,” and Arafat flounced out, to fire up the second, soon to be crushed, Intifada.
Why don’t the Palestinians learn their lesson? Why won’t they accept the grant of statehood? To repeat, perhaps because they don’t really want their own country? There are, after all, many bounties attached to their current status, perks that would disappear under the condition of statehood.
This is the age of the sanctified victim; and any person or group who can claim that title is automatically in a state of grace. Nobody is allowed to “blame the victim,” and so these lucky unfortunates can follow any course, however bloody, so long as they can blame their violence on their victimized condition. Convincing much of the world — including too many Jews — that they were the embodiment of the new Christ, the latest targets of Jewish savagery in the holy land, the Palestinians year ago captured the victim’s high-ground, and have since worked their claim for great profit. They are the darlings of the UN and of European elites: The West Bank hums with idealistic foreign youth eager to interpose their bodies between Palestinian flesh and Israeli tanks, as well as with foreign NGOs eager to drip healing valuta over the physical, psychological and financial wounds of this martyred folk. Unable to beat the Jews militarily, the Palestinians are winning the moral victories, and these are leading to decisive political victories as an outraged world threatens to sanction and boycott Israel.
But under statehood, the Palestinians will no longer have their special charisma as the world’s premier victims, innocent agrarians suffering under a harsh occupation. When the fickle world turns its attention to the latest victim du jour, their welfare benefits are likely to be sharply cut,
Then too, the wiser Palestinians, who remember Arafat and his predatory crew, have their own good reasons for quietly resisting statehood. They realize that, should they gain their own country, externally imposed Israeli rule would be replaced by internally based oppression, by the corrupt or fanatic leaders who — via factional warfare and the Arab politics of assassination — typically reach the top in their societies.
Thus far, we have been looking at the Palestinians’ practical reasons for avoiding statehood. They don’t want to lose their world-celebrity status, nor the funding that goes with it, and they don’t want either the likes of Hamas forcing Sharia law on them, or the likes of Arafat robbing them blind. But the Palestinian resistance to statehood has also less rational but equally compelling bases.
Foremost among these is the legacy of collective shame. With the possible exception of the Japanese, no culture is so vulnerable to a sense of shame and humiliation as the Arab world. Even in the 21st century, Arabs continue daily to lament Crusades that occurred nearly a thousand years ago. They still feel shame over the loss of Spanish Andalusia (“Andaluz” to the Arabs), their last European redoubt, evacuated in the 15th century. More recently, Palestinian Arabs have been exposed to traumatic humiliation by their defeat during the Israeli War of Independence. I remember how they initiated that war with febrile enthusiasm, confident that their magnificent Islamic warriors would sweep away the puny, cowardly Jewish opposition, certain that the Palestinians would inherit all of the Holy Land. But when push came to shove, instead of chasing the Jews into the sea, it was the majority of Arabs who ran away from the poorly armed Israeli Hagana (a militia that added insult to Arab injury by fielding women).
For example, the local Arabs had cleared out of Sidn’a Ali, a fairly prosperous village on the Sharon Plain, before our Palmach contingent had even arrived in their neighborhood. They ran on the rumor of our coming, and before our sparsely armed troops could have evicted them. The same drama was enacted across Palestine. A vast Palestinian and leftist PR apparatus has been developed to deny this truth, but the Naqba was largely self-inflicted.
The refugees’ reluctant hosts in neighboring Arab states were not as sympathetic as Europe’s Leftists: “You Palestinian whores! You sold your land to the Jews, and then ran away!!” The refugees, who had shamed not only themselves but also the whole Arab nation, were not generally accepted as citizens of the Arab countries to which they fled. Instead, they were penned up in fetid camps, where many remain to this day.
The calculus of Shame dictates that the Palestinian stigma of defeat can only be removed by a bloody victory over the Jews who inflicted it. By the same token, their state cannot be handed to the Palestinians by some benign international arbiter, or by a generous Israeli government. These are people who elect Hamas, who celebrate the “Victories” of Hezbollah, and who dance in the street when Israeli teenagers are blown up in a pizza parlor. The gift of a state that was not won in battle would only increase Palestinian shame. The Israelis tore their state out of the heart of Palestine; in order to get the Palestinians dancing again, their shame must be exported, to become Israeli shame. The Palestinian state must — in an act of bloody reparation — be torn out of the heart of Israel. Until a defeated Israel begs for terms, or better yet, is utterly destroyed, no final peace is possible, and no state otherwise gained can be acceptable to the Palestinians.
President Obama should realize that his dream of a Palestinian state can only be realized after a new, hi-tech Holocaust of Jews. These unfortunates would most likely die under a cloud of missiles from Lebanon, Syria, Iran and Gaza, even as Obama counsels them earnestly against any “disproportionate reaction.”
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Laney Bormel| 3.5.10 @ 7:46AM
Dr. Gutman has written a brilliant article explaining the underlying refusal of the Palestinians to mature and join the twenty-first century. The thesis that perpetual victimhood is politically and religiously preferable to creating a prosperous, responsible society is the most cogent explanation of the refusal of the Palestinians to make peace. Only with the clear vision of someone who was there at the beginning, rather than the can't-we-all-just-get-along drivel that passes for western diplomacy sixty years hence, are the baffling reasons for the self-destructiveness of the Palestinian put into context.
Alan Brooks| 3.5.10 @ 10:09AM
Israel is the glue that keeps militant Arabs united; if Israel didn't exist they would have at each other instead-- as was amply demonstrated by the Iran-Iraq war in the '80s.
John II| 3.5.10 @ 10:20AM
Not exactly. The Iranians by and large aren't Arabs. One needs to look a little harder at Islam itself to get to the bottom of Middle Eastern habits of manic violence. But the West ain't going there partly because of political correctness and partly because of the risk of sparking yet more riots among those who adhere to the religion of peace.
Alan Brooks| 3.5.10 @ 12:40PM
"The Iranians by and large aren't Arabs."
You are quite a petifogger-- Iranians are Shiite Arabs.
Larry in Iowa| 3.5.10 @ 1:24PM
Alan, the Iranians are Persians. Being Moslem does not make one an Arab.
Alan Brooks| 3.5.10 @ 3:16PM
look, Iranians have a certain solidarity with pan-Arabism in that they will side with Arabs on certain issues, such as driving Israel into the sea.
I don't care whther Arabs are Persians or Arabs
John II| 3.5.10 @ 4:49PM
Just one last note of pettifoggery. Persian (or Farsi) belongs to the Satem branch of the Indo-European family of languages. It's not a Semitic tongue, and the Persians are not Semites any more than Indian Muslims or Indonesian Muslims.
When the Persians finally get the Bomb--thanks to the fecklessness of the present administration, watch for the way the Arabs react, if you want proof that the difference between Persians and Arabs really makes a difference. There's only one thing that Muslims hate more than Christians and Jews: other Muslims, especially when they're of a different racial stock.
When you behold the difference between Arabs and Persians, I shall be patiently awaiting your groveling apology. Pettifoggery indeed! I've never been so insulted in my life.
NavyBrat| 3.5.10 @ 1:28PM
Not to sharpshoot you, Mr. Brooks, but Iranians consider themselves PERSIANS first, then MUSLIMS, but NEVER Arabs. There's a reason they speak Farsi, not Arabic.
Alan Brooks| 3.5.10 @ 3:25PM
If there is a firm linkage, that is all I care about.
This is how see it: Islam was whelped in Arabia, it spread to all nations in the region (and elsewhere).
Doesn't matter to me that Iranians speak Farsi or consider themselves Persians rather than Arabs; they are strongly influenced by Arabian Islam. They read the Koran, don't they?
Austrians may think of themselves as Austrians, but they are still Germanic.
I am not intersted in your advice on how to think any more than you are interested in my advice.
NavyBrat | 3.5.10 @ 5:07PM
Mr. Brooks. You need to relax. I wasn't "telling you how to think." I was merely pointing out the differences b/w the Arab Muslims & the Persian Muslims. I'm making no excuses for the warped, medieval ideology that Islam as a whole seems to be. Get your knickers out of a knot.
dissent555| 3.5.10 @ 1:35PM
Iranians are Shiite Arabs?
That's not my understanding; Shiite -yes, but Arab, no. For example -
http://www.thesimon.com/magazi.....guide.html
http://www.slate.com/id/1008394/
Alan Brooks| 3.5.10 @ 3:27PM
save your pendanticism.
Michael| 3.5.10 @ 4:06PM
That is the point, there IS a nation of Israel. It is the glue to the improvement of the Middle East. The terrorist Arabs need to realize Israel is always going to be there and, if they fight, Israel is going to defeat them again.
Alan Brooks| 3.7.10 @ 1:11AM
Your optimism is baseless. The Israelis are heavily outnumbered by their enemies, who could move against Israel today if they wanted to, but are biding time; building up weapons stockpiles.
There will be peace in the Mideast-- after millions have died. Peace doesn't come until all other 'methods' have been exhausted.
Meaning: piles of corpses and injured.
Don't think so? then you'll have to find out the hard way.
Dr. D| 3.6.10 @ 3:42PM
Shiite is a religion. iranians are quite clear in not considering themselves Arabs.
Alan Brooks| 3.7.10 @ 1:03AM
Yeah? just today Ahmadine-jihad said 911 was/is a quote unquote "big lie", in reiterating solidarity with 15 or so Saudi Arabian hijackers of 9-11.
I don't care if the Iranians are Arab boy scouts or Persian cub scouts-- it doesn't interest me in the slightest.
Alan Brooks| 3.7.10 @ 1:12AM
"Shiite is a religion. iranians are quite clear in not considering themselves Arabs."
They have a strange way of showing it.
FTM| 3.6.10 @ 3:54AM
John II is wise.
Anyone that thinks Islam is a religon of peace is deluded. Not to say that there aren't peacful people that practice Islam. Where is the Mullah that teaches peace? Where is the Mullah that ccondemns the deliberate targeting of bystanders in order to make a political point?
I am reminded of the passage dfrom the Hadith, the sayings of the prophet, "kill every Jew that comes into your power."
Salman| 3.5.10 @ 11:39PM
I guess Mexicans are Europeans because the are catholic. You are pretty sad. Religons spread into diffrent races. Persians are not Arabs.
Alan Brooks| 3.7.10 @ 1:23AM
"Shiite is a religion. iranians are quite clear in not considering themselves Arabs."
Well then Iran has a VERY STRANGE way of showing it. In fact I would say to salman (yes I know his is a different comment than the above) that Persians are as much a part of Islam as Mexico (for better or worse) is a part of N. America.
And I don't care what Iran is, or that you think my indifference is "sad". What don't you get about that?
This is a hardheaded rightwing blog-- not a bunch of suck-ups.
Geez Louise!
Alan Brooks| 3.7.10 @ 1:27AM
PS, I don't think you are actually "sad" about it. But regardless:
I DON'T GIVE DIDDLY SQUAT ABOUT IRAN.
Alrighty? get it straight, please. Thanks ever so much.
Alan Brooks| 3.8.10 @ 12:50AM
Very hard to accept that at a right-wing, non-PC, blog such as AS you guys can call Native Americans "Indians", yet I can't call Persians "Arabs." What the Hell do indigenous American natives have to do with India?
Oh, well, such is the dreary residue of PC.
DaisyW| 3.8.10 @ 11:48AM
If you are going to spout the neocon party line then get your facts straight, read a book why don’t you. You obviously don't know anything about the middle east. Iranians are not bloody Arabs - that is a basic fact that any educated person would know. They are in fact, genetically speaking, closer to Europeans. And that distinction between Arabs and Iran is vitally important. Stop watching John Hagee and Fox News for a history lesson. Really, try to educate yourself by reading a broad spectrum of books on the subject. The problems in the middle east are too important to be left to sound bites by Hannity and Hagee.
basur | 10.27.10 @ 9:17AM
The 1948 declaration by the United Nations that created the state of Israel also created the Arab state of Jordan. So much for the two state solution.
basur | 10.28.10 @ 9:02AM
Aren't the "Palestinians" the old Philistines of the Bible? They hated the Hebrews then, as well. What's new?
Old Soldier| 3.5.10 @ 7:50AM
Of course they don't want a state, they would have to act like a state. An attack on Israel would be an act of WAR with all of its consequences.
Salman| 3.5.10 @ 11:36PM
Isreal attacks Palestian daily. They are doing it now. That is an attack of war. You are foolish to blame Palestians only. The situation is both Isreali's and Palestians fault. They are taking peoples homes away. How would you like your home being stolen. They don't even pay Palestians for the lost home. That is an act of war.
Christopher Holland| 3.6.10 @ 1:40AM
You left out the bit about terrorism and suicide bombers. Israelis build homes - Palestinians blow up buses. The Israelis have all my sympathies.
Salman| 3.6.10 @ 2:17AM
Before they biuld homes they demolition Palestian homes. Stop being so blind. Suicide bombs in this conflict is as common as it use to be.
FTM| 3.6.10 @ 4:10AM
Salman,
Iraq, Iran and Syria claim a right to exist as a nation due to their historical antiquity. Israel as a nation existed before any of these three nations yet Israel doesn't have a right to exist by the same logic.
During the European Inquisition, one of the Ottoman Sultans, a Moslem, one of the Mahmouds if memory serves issued what was called "A proclaimation to European Jewery" for the Jews to leave Europe where they were being persecuted and move to the Trans-Jordan region where they now live.
Basically what you're looking at is the foundation and existance of the Jewish nation twice! So whos the squatter?
The matter of fact is that the people that call themselves "Palistinians" are for the most part ethinic Jordanians. These people were chased out of what is now Jordan after their tribal sect attempted the overthrow of a more populous tribal domination. The ones that weren't killed outright ran off and ended up where they are now.
Please bear in mind that none of this hatred and bloodshed is justified in my mind. There are Palistinians that live in the Jewish state, are citizens of the Jewish state, are property owners, are voters and participate in the Israeli Kinesset.
I for one am amazed at the restraint shown by the Israeli military. After all the acts of wanton, random murderousness displayed by various Palistinian factions toward Jews one would think that the Palistinian problem would have been solved years ago via eradication.
Dr. D| 3.6.10 @ 3:44PM
"Israel attack Palestinians daily"? really? They launch missiles at civilian Palestinians daily, they try and blow up with suicide Palestinians daily, they dig tunnels to get weapons to wage more murder, they inculcate their children and people in a culture of murder and death-oh, wait that's the Pallestinians. Never mind. You simply don't make any sense
Alan Brooks| 3.8.10 @ 12:45AM
Of course Iranians are Persians, not Arabs; but very hard to accept that at a right-wing blog you guys can call Native Americans "Indians" yet I can't call Persians Arabs.
What the HELL do indigenous American natives have to do with India?
Oh, well.
martin j smith| 3.5.10 @ 7:59AM
This is my view: The Palistinian State idea ( two states ) has always been a fraud. The Geater Arab world simply put does not want Israel and the Jewish or even other people of other religions to exist. Period. The Egypt Israeli so called Peace accord was an aberration of Sadat who of course was assassinated. And, Yitzak Rabin was also assasinated for almost analogous reasons ( enough angry people felt he was selling out the nation ) And, I should say that assassination is a very bad thing in civilized society. But, the likelyhood of its happening is greater when the people are not heeded. So where does leave the the possibnility of "peace"
Until and unless there is a show willingness to accept Israel as a Jewish state ( borders to be negotated ) the idea of two states is a lie. That means recognize the State of Israel. Period. Anything short of that is a perpetuation of a fruitless process. The likelihood of that happening is about ZERO.
Ryan| 3.5.10 @ 12:36PM
As long as they hold the Priories of Sion - a fraudulent Russian work that was written to try and discredit Jews - as fact, they hold no legitimacy at all.
Also, I always wonder why several of the wealthy Muslim nations, who could EASILY aid Palestine monetarily - don't help at all.
Alan Brooks| 3.5.10 @ 3:30PM
"Also, I always wonder why several of the wealthy Muslim nations, who could EASILY aid Palestine monetarily - don't help at all."
Finally, a good comment. The answer is: The palestinians and all Arab nations to some extent (greater than lesser) want to keep Israel as the 'Other'; the shared enemy.
No peace in Mideast.
SOLLY| 4.30.10 @ 10:47AM
You are so right.
The answer is a simple fact of life.
Its all politics = self interests
Truth and justice do not reside with politicians.
This is true ,in particular ,to American policies towards the rest of the world in recent time.
Behind every act of "friendship" look for the self interest.
Only when the two parties benefit from an act ,then they make it happen but usually dress it with big moralistic values to make it look pure and dignified.
This rule applies to your question. Arab nations interest is to perpetuate the palestinian problem in the hands of the free world and keep Israel image as the cause of the problem.
Jason| 3.5.10 @ 4:08PM
I tend to agree with you Martin, however, I believe there is a second way for the establishment of a Palestinian State alongside Israel, in peace.
The next time a conflict erupts between the Israelis and the Palestinians, the International Community needs to stay out of it. The world needs to let the conflict run its natural course.
What this means is, the next time the Palestinians start to rocket Israel, and we all know they eventually will, Israel must be allowed to inflict damage until the Palestinians beg for peace. No more of the International Community trying to get Israel to stop the military onslaught after the first two days, as is the usual situation. Every war fought between Israel and its neighbors has been stopped from the outside by the International Community. Never has the conflict been allowed to run its complete course.
Until the world allows the conflict to run its course, they are only postponing the next round for a few months or years. Eventually the hostilities start up again, and another war erupts, only to be artificially stopped a few days later, not solving the underlying conflict that caused the war in the first place.
Another thing that would help would be the world stopping all the aid to the Palestinians. They don't have to feel the consequences of their actions. Their hard work and money is not lost. The destruction that came was at the International Communities dime. Notice how even Arab countries always pledge little amounts of aid, yet rarely follow through with the payments. Until the Palestinians feel the full consequences of their actions, nothing can change.
FTM| 3.6.10 @ 4:12AM
Jason too is wise.
Dr. D| 3.6.10 @ 3:46PM
You sir-have said a mouthful. I applaud the logic of your post. It is a shame that the world runs interference for the most degenerate culture and group of murdering scumbags the modern world has ever seen....You are a wise man. Let us pray that your recommendation becomes a reality.
Richard Baker| 3.5.10 @ 7:59AM
Aren't the "Palestinians" the old Philistines of the Bible? They hated the Hebrews then, as well. What's new?
KyMouse| 3.5.10 @ 9:11AM
Mr. Baker, the ancient Romans gave the name "Palaestina" to the Jewish homeland in an effort to erase its Jewishness; the Romans wanted people to believe that the land had belonged instead to the ancient Philistines. The name change was, as the late Messianic Jewish evangelist Zola Levitt used to say, an early attempt at a "final solution" to the "Jewish problem."
The following information about claims to the land is from the Jewish Virtual Library: "Palestinian claims to be related to the Canaanites are a recent phenomenon and contrary to historical evidence. The Canaanites disappeared from the face of the earth three millennia ago, and no one knows if any of their descendants survived or, if they did, who they would be.
"Sherif Hussein, the guardian of the Islamic Holy Places in Arabia, said the Palestinians' ancestors had only been in the area for 1,000 years.9 Even the Palestinians themselves have acknowledged their association with the region came long after the Jews. In testimony before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, for example, they claimed a connection to Palestine of more than 1,000 years, dating back no further than the conquest of Muhammad's followers in the 7th century.10 And that claim is also dubious. Over the last 2,000 years, there have been massive invasions that killed off most of the local people (e.g., the Crusades), migrations, the plague, and other manmade or natural disasters. The entire local population was replaced many times over. During the British mandate alone, more than 100,000 Arabs emigrated from neighboring countries and are today considered Palestinians.
"By contrast, no serious historian questions the more than 3,000-year-old Jewish connection to the Land of Israel, or the modern Jewish people's relation to the ancient Hebrews."
Digonetus| 3.5.10 @ 12:55PM
The Philistines disappeared as a distinct people shortly after the Babylonian conquest of the Levant.
Gregory Tatum| 3.5.10 @ 8:01AM
While you mention two important factors of Arab-Israeli conflict (tribalism and honor/shame culture WHICH EXIST ON BOTH SIDES OF THE WALL), you forget perhaps the most telling issue: demographics. Secular Israelis have European level birthrates; Religious Israelis have high birthrates but are ambivalent (to say the least) about the state of Israel. Muslim Arabs have astronomic birthrates. Christian Arabs have a moderate birthrate but they emigrate at alarming levels on account of Muslim and Jewish animosity. Any one-state solution would be majority Muslim Arab.
senseandsensibility| 3.5.10 @ 8:55AM
Exactly. We can argue about who's crazy until kingdom come, so to speak. But demographics is destiny.
Pingback| 3.5.10 @ 8:06AM
The B&R Friday Edition | Bob Parks: Black & Right 2010 links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Joan| 3.5.10 @ 9:19AM
One of my favorite and most relevant quotes: "There will never be peace until they love their children, more than they hate us" - Golda Meir
KyMouse| 3.5.10 @ 9:28AM
We'll see, but my money's on God's promises to His Jewish people in the Bible. The covenant in which He promised that land to them is repeated more than 20 times in Genesis (beginning with Gen. 12:1-3) and at least 25 times in Deuteronomy, to name just two books. It reappears in Psalms 105 and 123, in Zechariah 9-14, and many other texts.
Consider Amos 9:14-15: "'Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, and they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them, they will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, and make gardens and eat their fruit. I will also plant them on their land, and they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them,' Says the Lord your God."
If I may mention Zola Levitt again, he always pointed out that no other people have had a history like the Jews, who were forced off their land, scattered to just about every foreign land, yet almost two millennia later, returned to their ancient homeland speaking the same language, observing many of their ancestors' customs, and acknowledging (if not always worshipping) the same God. What other people have achieved that? And the Bible said that it would all happen.
RMS| 3.5.10 @ 11:07PM
Israel was a picture of heaven. The Jews were promised it upon the obedience of belief. They were exiled twice for unbelief. They still don't believe in Christ nor is zionism Judaism, much more even modern Israel doesn't even believe in or practice Judaism. What gives?
The premillenial dispensational fundamentalist view of the Bible that totally ignores Rom. 2:28,29. The real Jew is whoever has a circumcized heart and believes in Christ.
Margie| 3.6.10 @ 12:09AM
"Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; and this will be My Covenant with them when I take away their sins. As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy. For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that He may have mercy upon all."
Rmns. 11:25-32.
FTM| 3.6.10 @ 4:16AM
KyMouse is wise.
ncatty| 3.5.10 @ 9:46AM
Using the same logic, shouldn't Israel re-build the temple and reinstitute the sacrificial system? But over and above this interesting historical and theological question, what is the proper role of the United States of America in this conflict?
KyMouse| 3.5.10 @ 11:15AM
mcatty, modern Israel is mostly secular. In addition, modern Judaism teaches, I believe, that prayers and good deeds are sufficient for atonement, not blood sacrifice. However, God has never repealed Leviticus 17:11. See also Hebrews 10:10-14.
ncatty| 3.5.10 @ 12:35PM
So God ordained that modern Israel will be mostly secular? If we start proof-texting we will never end. How about the second question: The proper role of the USA?
coal carrier| 3.6.10 @ 7:15AM
Onward Christian Soldiers.
Salman| 3.6.10 @ 2:03AM
No isreal is not a secular state. it is a Jewish state. They don't even try to hide that fact. Jews can only be citizens. That is not secular
Ken (Old Texican)| 3.5.10 @ 10:16AM
Mr Gutman, thank you.
I read Uris' Exodous many years ago, and became fascinated with Israel. One of my profs at Baylor U. was on the team that helped the Israelis "reinvent" spoken and envoweled Hebrew during the late forties I believe.
He was on the archeological expedition that discovered the rosetta stone under Jerusalem and worked a lifetime on it.
Your article here is the best/most accurate summary and conclusion I have seen.
ncatty,
The US gave our word of honor to establish the state of Israel at the UN, in 1947 I believe.
We must not break our word to a democratically governed ally......ever.
John II| 3.5.10 @ 10:28AM
Ken: The Rosetta Stone was discovered in Egypt in 1799 by Napoleon's occupying troops. It's now in the British Museum. You must be thinking of some other discovery. There have been quite a few by Israeli archaeologists.
Ken (Old Texican)| 3.5.10 @ 11:02AM
JOHN II THANKS! YOU ARE RIGHT.
I got my expeditions crossed in my senior moment.
Dr. Kyle Yates was the prof. by the way and he was on the team that discovered "King David's Arch".
It was a carved dedication to King David in an underground viaduct arch under Jerusalem...with full envowelment of the Hebrew.
Sorry.
ncatty| 3.5.10 @ 12:38PM
So is Israel our 51st State? What about Washington's warning to avoid habitual friendships or habitual hatreds, as they will cause us to lose our independence of action?
FTM| 3.6.10 @ 4:20AM
So we should abandon Israel, or any other minority people for that matter, to be slaughtered by a collection of hate-mongering savages, is that it?
senseandsensibility| 3.6.10 @ 10:45AM
Sure. We do it all the time. Why should my kid die because people want to live like primitives and kill one another because they don't like each other's religion?
And what's all this U.N. talk? I thought you guys didn't believe in the U.N.
FTM| 3.7.10 @ 10:08PM
Actually, I think that the Israeli kids have been doing a fine job.
Simon Templar| 3.5.10 @ 11:00AM
What else would you expect from a mentally deranged jew hating people and culture? Rationality? Truth? This is not shame it is PRIDE! Reckless, evil, self destructive pride. There is no honor at stake here..just hate, falsehood, and self delusion.
Marc Jeric| 3.5.10 @ 12:02PM
Brilliant article! There will be no 2-state solution ever - the Arab intransigence is eternal.
What bugs me is the designation "Israeli-occupied territories of Gaza and the West Bank". Gaza was illegally occupied by Egypt, and the West Bank was illegally occupied by Jordan in 1948. When the Israelis occupied these territories in the war of 1967 (?-not sure) they became liberated territories, right?
Northern Rebel| 3.5.10 @ 12:04PM
Muslims will never co-exist with Jews, whether they have a state or not.
The Jewish and Christian religions revolve around the sanctity of life, whereas the Muslims worship death.
Until the cultural changes necessary to change that philosophy, there can be no peace.
As a result, radical Muslims must be treated like the Nazi's they emulate:
they must be exterminated until their ability to wage war and violence is eliminated.
I'm sure there are peaceful muslims. I just never hear their voice. I'd like to think it is because they fear their radical brethren, rather than agree with them.
But, who can tell?
I'm sure there were people in the Nazi party, that didn't think killing 6 million people was a good idea either, but that doesn't mean we should have waited around for them to speak up either.
Until evil is exterminated, there will be no peace. It is painfully obvious that radical Islam is evil, and must be destroyed.
Unfortunately, I don't think someone named Barak Hussein Obama is the go to guy for this mission.
Salman| 3.6.10 @ 1:55AM
"The Jewish and Christian religions revolve around the sanctity of life, whereas the Muslims worship death. "
How many times have you read the Quran. Muslim's beleive in a direct connection to god just like jews and christians.
coal carrier| 3.6.10 @ 7:26AM
Is this why they flew planes into the twin towers and murdered 3,000 innocent people? So they could go directly to God. One who kills in the name of God will not acquire 72 virgins. They will surely burn in hell for eternity.
Pingback| 3.5.10 @ 12:32PM
Why the Palestinians Don’t Want a State « Sassy Wire links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Edgar dante| 3.5.10 @ 12:35PM
It is really fascinating to read all these comments: I can conclude that the american peoples is incredible ignorant and the one who wrote this a fantastic liar. One thing is forgotten here: there is no big difference between arabs and jews, only political posture...and because the arabs are the bad guys now, there is no need to hunt indians or negroes, they got thye arabs now to show how superior american whites are, at the point that christian and jews are alike...that was not the reason for the creation of inquisition.
This article is a disgrace and a racist proclamation.
GW| 3.5.10 @ 12:49PM
"the american peoples is incredible ignorant..."
What does this even mean? Apparently English isn't your first language. Go find another website to post on.
DaisyW| 3.6.10 @ 11:23AM
I think what the poster is trying to say is that the American people are incredibly ignorant. If you were not such an idiot you could have figured that yourself. So maybe you need to go to another website.
NavyBrat | 3.5.10 @ 5:11PM
Please, dear foreigner, tell us what, exactly, in this article qualifies it as "racist." As to your assertion that Arabs & Jews are the same, well now I've heard it all. Maybe you think that the Earth is flat, too.
Salmana| 3.6.10 @ 1:52AM
I am not a foreigner and i will tell you what is racist. I am a around many arabs and i never heard them say this "Foremost among these is the legacy of collective shame. With the possible exception of the Japanese, no culture is so vulnerable to a sense of shame and humiliation as the Arab world. Even in the 21st century, Arabs continue daily to lament Crusades that occurred nearly a thousand years ago.
People who talk like this are blind to the truth.
Pingback| 3.5.10 @ 12:39PM
American Food in American Literature | Materials Characterization Material Geek links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Ken| 3.5.10 @ 12:43PM
The 1948 declaration by the United Nations that created the state of Israel also created the Arab state of Jordan. So much for the two state solution.
The Biblical Philistines were known as the Sea People to the Egyptians. They migrated from the Aegean Islands and other Mediterranean islands from Sardinia to Crete and settled in the Levant, where there superior metallurgy (they made tools and weapons from iron) made them formidable opponents. One of their settlements is Troy, whose defeat by the Greeks is told by Homer in the Iliad.
Keep it to the facts| 3.5.10 @ 12:46PM
Let's continue with the same old narrative that will bring us nowhere. Wicked Arabs against virtuous Israelis. The Palestinians are evil and want to kill everything. The Israelis have tried to make peace at every turn, but the only thing the Palestinians know what to do is dispatch suicide bombers... Please I implore you, start reading academic journals, history books. Enroll in classes at university. This conflict is not black and white. BOTH sides are to blame for the current state of affairs.
GW| 3.5.10 @ 12:51PM
Yes, go to liberal, Jew-hating universities to get the "truth." The fact is, Israel is a western-style democracy with a desire for peace. They recognize the struggles of the Palestinians. The Palestinians, however, do not negotiate or want a peaceful solution. They elect terrorists groups to represent their wishes, and then cry out whenever Israel defends herself.
It's pretty damn black and white.
Margie| 3.5.10 @ 6:39PM
Yup. 'Tis true.
And they want Israel wiped off the face of the earth. And they have no qualms telling you so. And the reason IS because they don't consider Israel legitimate, period!
All you have to do is read part of the Palestinian Charter:
"Article 17: The partitioning of Palestine, which took place in 1947, and the establishment of Israel are illegal and null and void, regardless of the loss of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and its natural right to its homeland, and were in violation of the basic principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations, foremost among which is the right to self-determination.
Article 18: The Balfour Declaration, the Palestine Mandate System, and all that has been based on them are considered null and void. The claims of historic and spiritual ties between Jews and Palestine are not in agreement with the facts of history or with the true basis of sound statehood. Judaism, because it is a divine religion, is not a nationality with independent existence. Furthermore, the Jews are not one people with an independent personality because they are citizens to their states.
Article 19: Zionism is a colonialist movement in its inception, aggressive and expansionist in its goal, racist in its configurations, and fascist in its means and aims. Israel, in its capacity as the spearhead of this destructive movement and as the pillar of colonialism, is a permanent source of tension and turmoil in the Middle East, in particular, and to the international community in general. Because of this, the people of Palestine are worthy of the support and sustenance of the community of nations."
Salman| 3.6.10 @ 1:47AM
I thought western style democracies promoted freedom for all religons. Isreal only has freedom for Jews. That's not western ideology
Keep it to the facts| 3.5.10 @ 12:56PM
So GW, which universities are not Jew hating? If anybody criticized the state of Israel, they are jew haters? The Palestinians have committed grave atrocities but so have the Israeli's. Furthermore, organizations like B'Tselem have documented Israeli injustices against Palestinians. But since they are Jewish, they must be self hating Jews then?
Always Question| 3.5.10 @ 2:08PM
I saw the following once, and it summarizes it for me. If the Palestinians laid down their weapons, to you thing the Isrealis would invade? Now, if the Isrealis laid down their weapons, what do you think would happen. The Isrealis are fighting for their very existence, but would welcome and cherish true peace if it was sincerely offered.
Always Question| 3.5.10 @ 2:10PM
Typos, typos - my passion overruled my typing - "do you think the Isrealis would invade?"
Ken (Old Texican)| 3.5.10 @ 1:01PM
Bullshit! Get your "Facts straight"
Perhaps more importantly, consider the sources of your so-called facts.
Like Mr. Gutman summarized above, "if you start a war...you had better win it."
Six zillion Arabs couldn't whip a few thousand jews still recovering from the starvation of the death-camps.
The proof is in the pudding, jerk.
Salman| 3.6.10 @ 1:43AM
Shows how much you know about history of jewish immigration to palestine. Most Jews immigrated before the Hitler's death camps.
Pingback| 3.5.10 @ 1:04PM
Earthquakes Floods and the Wealth of a Nation - Bruce Political Watch links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Pingback| 3.5.10 @ 2:24PM
Food Safety Imperative: Protecting Your Supply Chain – Cover Story … | Food Health Wi links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Northern Rebel| 3.5.10 @ 2:29PM
One thing I enjoy about forums like this, is when a person posts more than one time. A picture begins to appear of the individual, and his personality, with it's various ecentricities or prejudices begin to show their true colors.
"Facts" colors are of the bigoted nature, and Dante, well who knows?
Dante says Jews and Arabs are the same, although I've never heard of an instance where a Jewish person strapped on explosives, and blew up a bus load of innocent Arab children.
Perhaps "facts" can document such an event, being the "factual" person he claims to be.
Keep it to the facts| 3.5.10 @ 3:18PM
That is because Israel has the most powerful army in the Middle East and uses the army as its tool of hard power. The war in Gaza resulted in over 1000 dead (mostly women and children --> this is well documented) and thousands wounded + a whole country destroyed. No suicide bomber could ever achieve that.
GW| 3.5.10 @ 4:13PM
Only 1000? It should have been more. The "innocent" women and children are no better than the terrorists they support.
http://www.independent.co.uk/m.....53628s.jpg
SALMAN| 3.6.10 @ 1:40AM
You are pretty sick minded. Killing more people only makes the hate worse.
DaisyW| 3.6.10 @ 11:37AM
You are an evil, disturbing person not to mention mentally unstable. Perfect for the side you supporting. The Israelis should be proud.
Always Question| 3.5.10 @ 4:13PM
How long do you think any sovereign nation should stand by and allow their neighbor to lob missiles into their population centers? Since it is also a well documented fact that the cowards in Hamas (and indeed, other Muslim terrorists) like to embed themselves in the civilian population when attacking, it is not surprising that there were unnecessary civilian deaths. This is on the head of those who refuse to allow Israel to live in peace.
NavyBrat | 3.5.10 @ 5:16PM
"(mostly women and children --> this is well documented) and thousands wounded"
Does the term "human shields" mean anything to you? That seems to be a pretty big pertinent fact that you don't seem to keep to. Why don't you go hug a suicide bomber? Maybe you can convince him that the 41 virgins aren't worth it. If not, then no biggie. What's one less Jihadi & Jihadi sympathizer?
George| 3.6.10 @ 2:08PM
The reason so many Palestines die is because Hamas uses their women and children as shields! They even kill their own people in order to blame it on Israel. Last war Hamas destroyed a school filled with children and tried to blame it on Israel.
Salman| 3.6.10 @ 1:38AM
Isreal bombed children in gaza last year. Same exact thing. It shows that you are blind to Isreal atrocities. Both sides carry blame for there not being peace.
Ken (Old Texican)| 3.5.10 @ 3:17PM
Rebel, that was too true to be funny.
Why did I laugh with sadness? To keep from crying?
Jack Kinch(1uncle)| 3.5.10 @ 3:28PM
Arabs have ruled the area mostly. They never created a Palestinian state. If one was created for P C , it would be country ruled by a dictator. Dics always create an emeny for the people to hate.
Salman| 3.6.10 @ 1:36AM
Dictators do create hate based societies. That why they all need a democratic system for jew and palestians to participate in.
obadiah| 3.5.10 @ 3:30PM
the arabs don't want peace becuz they would have to give up their lie of vengeance and victory. the israelis don't want peace becuz they would have to give up their lie of greater israel. the russians don't want peace becuz war in the middle east is the only thing that supports their lie of great power status.
Pingback| 3.5.10 @ 3:31PM
The American Spectator : Why the Palestinians Don't Want a State | arablives links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Pingback| 3.5.10 @ 3:31PM
The American Spectator : Why the Palestinians Don't Want a State | arablives links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Pingback| 3.5.10 @ 4:02PM
Used Maserati – The Quattroporte | Maserati Automotive Marque links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
DatsunMark| 3.5.10 @ 4:06PM
How ironic that Bill Clinton who loved more to have an issue (rather than a solution) to beat over the heads of his conservative opponents, ended up defeated by Arafat who used that same strategy against him. Frankly, peace will come only to the Palestinians after a man of the magnatude of *Gandi* comes forward (and perhaps dies) for true peace. But don't count on it because they are in a perpetual soap of hatred of the Jews.
Salman| 3.6.10 @ 1:33AM
History is on Palestians side that such a figure as Gandhi can arise.
Richard Baker| 3.5.10 @ 5:30PM
One of the dirty little secrets is that the other Arab countries don't really give two hoots for the "Palestinians" except as a way to bludgeon Israel. Remember Black September? King Hussein killed how many of his fraternal brothers?
Salman| 3.6.10 @ 1:32AM
Palestians are not free people in other Arab countries. Other Arab countries have restrictions against Palestians. So Palestians don't live any where as free people, except the Untied States. Freedom for all is best.
Richard Baker| 3.5.10 @ 5:45PM
Change fraternal to ecclesiastical. or maybe co-religionists. Regardless, he killed a WHOLE potload of 'em.
Nei | 3.5.10 @ 9:22PM
Wouldn't it be interesting if Israel pushed the issue by forcably emptying the west bank and gaza of Arabs? I mean why not? They couldn't be hated any more than they are already and the Arab street would be exposed as the fraud they are.
The elephant in the Arab's livingroom is their clear understanding Allah has not blessed them in this issue and are afraid of this piddly little country because they fear the God of Israel.
Salman| 3.6.10 @ 1:30AM
Why do you hate people. Hitler hated jews and and took their property and posesions. Do you believe that was right? I don't believe that is right. I condemn all nations that steal for the benifit of others people.
FTM| 3.6.10 @ 4:35AM
If you are sincere Salman then good for you. Honestly and for real, good for you. Theere is no reason that the Moslem and the Jew and the Christian can't live side by side in peace. It is up to the peaceful among each faction to police it's own and contain or eliminate the ones that will, can or have killed for the holy cause.
Now, truth be told, an Israeli will be prosecuted by an Israeli court for murder for killing a Palistinian. That's the way that ccivilized people behave. Palistinians on the other hand are lauded as heros for killing Israelis. How can peace exist in such a climate?
Neil| 3.5.10 @ 9:26PM
Forcibly
Jon| 3.5.10 @ 11:08PM
This article hits the nail on the head of the fundamental problem. I can however happily propose a solution(with no chance sadly of being implemented). I'm sure the American people would not mind donating/selling one of our 50 states to become a Jewish state. Sovereign but protected...like the Vatican within Italy. I would propose my state of Alabama, and I assume they would not want Alaska. Something that would also help: do like the Muslims, and have the Jewish people multiply like bunny rabbits. Finally based on my understanding of the Bible, I have a faint idea of how it all ultimately turns out. Because of this I say (half jokingly) take the bulldozers to the Al-Aqsa Mosque sitting on the Dome of the Rock and lets get on with it.
SALMAN| 3.6.10 @ 1:26AM
So you don't want Peace?
SALMAN| 3.6.10 @ 1:29AM
Why do you hate people. Hitler hated jews and and took their property and posesions. Do you believe that was right? I don't believe that is right. I condemn all nations that steal for the benifit of others people.
filofox| 3.6.10 @ 1:32AM
Jon! Buddy! What an idea! Of course, there would still be some security concerns like Palastininan terrorists in Tuscaloosa. If they arrived on game day, of course, it would not matter - the rest of us will just trample 'em on the way to the stadium.
SALMAN| 3.6.10 @ 1:21AM
Have you heard the about what happens to the average family during the 1948 war? Do you know when most of the Jews came to Palestine? The migration of jews happened over a long period of time. Most of the Jews living in Palestine imigrated there decades before 1948. Anti semitism was spreading rapidly throughout Europe in the late 1880's. Between 1882 and 1903, approximately 35,000 jews immigrated to Palestine. 1904-1914 40,000 jews immigrated to palestine. 1919-1923 40,00 Jews immigrated to Palestine. 1924-1929 82,000 jews immigrated to Palestine. 1929-1939 250,000 jews immigrated to Palestine. By the way did you know Palestians are not just Muslims. Did you know Palestians are Christians too. Palestians Christians also lost their lands. Isreali's are racist. They don't care if your Christian or Muslim. They care that your Palestian. In 1948, the palestian's who weren't fighting and were with their family were scared off by Isreali's. It is absolutly reckless to lie and say Isreali's paid for the land that was lost. My Grandfather's land was stolen and scared off with his family because Jews were killing every Palestian on sight. How come you never talk about the fact that the Jews killed thousands of civilians. Women and children who were not fighting. They would just run through neighborhoods and masacre civilians. The goal of these masacre was to scare Palestians to move away. Just like the Europeans did to Jews in Europe. While we both can condemn European conduct to Jews throughout the centries. Massacres in many countries and even genocide in Germany. Jews who immigrated to Palestine learned how Europeans scared them off and turned it on Palestians. Lets face the reason why Jews left Europe for Palestine is because European could not tolerate Jews. When 1948 came around and war broke the started turning the tactics Europeans used on them and turned it against Palestians. Murder them even when they were not violent. Wouldn't you run to protect your children? It is foolish to say you would stay put when your brother's family was killed and now they were coming down the street towards your house with your family inside. Would you stay put. risk your family lives for your home. If you stay put you are as good as dead. It is human instinct to run. Stop acting like Palestians aren't human like you. YOU WOULD RUN! Let end this point with this Fictional story.
You have 4 children and a wife. You are 28 years old. Your children are all under the age of 8. You live in Phoenix, Arizona and your brother lives in Tueson. The United States is not friendly with Mexico and Mexico decides to invade. They go north into southern Arizona and massacre thousands of civilians and, your brother and his family were some of the victims. the reaming of fleeing tueson civilians will go to Phoenix and tell thier friends about how the Mexicans massacred civilians and families. The Mexicans are about 2 miles ourside of Phoenix. You have two options. 1. Run away and spare your family. 2. Risk your family of being killed. My grandfather chose the first option because he wanted his family to live.
Now that I made my point. I like to call you out on a disgusting quote. ""You Palestinian whores! You sold your land to the Jews, and then ran away!!" MY GRANDFATHER SOLD HIS LAND FOR HIS LIFE AND HIS FAMILIY'S LIFE. HE DID NOT RECIEVE A DIME FROM THE JEWISH THIEVES. HE WAS NOT A WHORE BUT A HERO! I would not be around if he had not made the decsion. Maybe you should try looking at it in a human Perspective. Try putting your self and your family in the threat of death. I like to see you leave your family in harms way. I guess that makes you the whore for not looking at the consequneces of your choices. When Europeans stript Jews of liberty, property, and life they ran from Europe. Does that make them Whores? For protecting their families from the Jewish presuction in Europe. Absolutley not! Why would it make Palestians Whores for running to from persuction for Jews.
I guess i have come to the conclussion that you are hypocritical to the human aspect of life. You bluntly ignore the fact when people are in danger, they don't sit still and wait for their doom. They fight or run. They fight because they want a home or they run to protect their family. Those who fought died and those who ran lived. The people who didn't fight in the war and stayed behind were killed. The only option for survival is to run. There is nothing cowardly in protecting your family. Those call this act cowardly ignore the Human aspect of life.
I like to call you out on another quote you made, "
The calculus of Shame dictates that the Palestinian stigma of defeat can only be removed by a bloody victory over the Jews who inflicted it. By the same token, their state cannot be handed to the Palestinians by some benign international arbiter, or by a generous Israeli government. These are people who elect Hamas, who celebrate the "Victories" of Hezbollah, and who dance in the street when Israeli teenagers are blown up in a pizza parlor. The gift of a state that was not won in battle would only increase Palestinian shame. The Israelis tore their state out of the heart of Palestine; in order to get the Palestinians dancing again, their shame must be exported, to become Israeli shame. The Palestinian state must -- in an act of bloody reparation -- be torn out of the heart of Israel. Until a defeated Israel begs for terms, or better yet, is utterly destroyed, no final peace is possible, and no state otherwise gained can be acceptable to the Palestinians. "
There can always be peace. The only way peace can be achieved in any situation is law and order! Isreal does not give Palestians law and order. Any state that is a theocracy does not give all people law and order is evil. This why the United States stand for. This is what i stand for. Law and Order for all people. Isreal does not allow freedom to Palestians. They can not travel easily throughout their own land. Check points every where restrict travel of people. There is no freedom. Loose your job because you are not jewish and can't be trusted to pass. You tell me how there is supose to be peace without freedom. This is the very thing America has fought for in our history. People's freedom. Peoples right to live in a state.
The only solution to peace is a one state democracy of Jews, Muslims, and Christians. All people should have a right to live in the holy land. Let's face it, Palestians can't live without the holy land and Jews won't either. The best solution is a goverment the promotes freedom, democracy, and justice to all. I have learned from American History that tolerance is only possible with integration and force them to sure some culture with each other. If Palestian's and Isreali's don't integrate then there will never be peace. Peace can not be achieved without freedom!
Let's let History be the judge of what works and doesn't. Instead of making Palestine and Isreal split directions in history, the United States should force a marriage between Palestine and Isreal. So freedom and democracy in the middle east can for ring for everyone.
P.S. I am Palestian arab and i never speak about the crusades because it is irreavent today. You should not be so racist about the crusades. Not all of us talk about the crusades. You can only hear the radicals talk about the crusades like Sarah Palin talks about Obama not being born in the USA. She does not represent the whole nation when she speaks.
filofox| 3.6.10 @ 1:46AM
Salmon,
My grandparents left Europe in the 1800s because there was no hope, no food, no jobs, no future. They moved to America, one working as a shoemaker and one working as a migrant farm worker to get by. The did not whine about their lot, and they did not vow to wipe out those who were able to remain. They got on with their lives and made something of themselves.
Contrast this with the constant "poor me!" Whining of Hamas and its enablers.
My advice is to stop whining, make something of yourselves, be a good neighbor. If you lived next to me and tossed rocks in my yard, you'd get them right back. If you acted like a good neighbor, you could count on me to be a good one, too. How it plays out is your decision.
It is also the Palastinian's decision.
Salman| 3.6.10 @ 2:11AM
You didn't read through it all. I don't support Hamas. Never said i did. It is not poor me. I live in America. I promote living next your neighbor. Integration between Palestians and Isreali's is the only way for peace. Palestians don't have jobs, hope, or future. I advocate for them to have a future. next time read my whole comment.
I wasn't even whining, i gave my oppinion and facts that i know. maybe you should take some lessons about tolerance.
FTM| 3.6.10 @ 4:49AM
Salman,
You appear to be genuine in your desire for peace to me. Good for you. I'm glad that you live here in America and hope all the best for you and your family.
The point is simply this, when Hamas or Hezzbolah sets up a Katusha rocket launcher in a neighborhood or next to a school or perhaps a mosque, why aren't the people that live there overrunning and killing the Hamas and Hezzbolah people? You know as sure as politicians lie that the Israeli counterbattery is going to slaughter the people that Hamas and Hezzbolah are hiding behind. DPICM does that. It would seem to me that the ethnic Palistinian would be seeking to kill Hamas and Hezzbolah rather than then Israelis.
Salman| 3.6.10 @ 2:14AM
By the way, i go to ASU. So i am making something out of my life. Don't be racist and assume I am not American. I am third generation American. You shouldn't assume
filofox| 3.6.10 @ 3:35AM
Sorry to have touched a nerve, but I did not post 8 paragraphs of reasons why we should be more open-minded and understanding. What I did do is point out that there comes a time when one must stop sniveling about the past and get on with things the way the are. It's great that you find yourself now at ASU but what you wrote above is excusing, not advocating.
I'm fortunate that my ancestors gave me a better example to follow. I'm sad for you that yours did not but I'll not excuse it.
Salman| 3.6.10 @ 4:24AM
"What I did do is point out that there comes a time when one must stop sniveling about the past and get on with things the way the are."
Let me guess. Your ancestors supported seggragation in america. Is that they way you like things. Let things stay broken and not make a better future for all people. So i guess your ancestors supported kings and emporers when they lived in Europe because they felt they should get on with the way things are. Is that the lesson we can learn from your ancestors. is that what they taught you.
isn't better to move on and bring freedom to all people. Not just say it is the way it is and get on with the way things are.
You may think your ancestors are better than mine, but I can assure you are just dreaming. You don't know who my ancestors are. My ancestors knew what was best for my family. The come from all over the world.
filofox| 3.6.10 @ 4:58AM
Ah, here comes the racism label. Name calling and race-baiting are the usual refuges of the scoundrel when reason and fact fail.
John II| 3.6.10 @ 10:35AM
Salman, if you're a third generation American, why do you write English in the manner of an earnest young immigrant who just got off the boat after six months of EFL lessons from the American University in Beirut?
And if your postings aren't a scam and you really are third generation, has it ever occurred to you that you may be carrying non-assimilation to a bit of an extreme? Like second-generation Mexican-Americans who still affect a Spanish accent? What the hell is going on?
Salman| 3.6.10 @ 4:00PM
Don't hate my english! I don't speak any other language. I live in a white american community and don't actually hang out with arabs or minorities unless it is my family. All of my friends are white boys. So the very fact that you assumed I have not assiumlated into American society is racist. Like I said before. Stop assuming. Do you want me to you my mother's family name so you stop thinking i am arab? I guess that doesn't matter because you think that america is either Black, white, or brown with no shades in between. I come from Family from all of the world who all met in America learned and spoke english. They were all eager to learn when they got here. Stop assuming that i have not assimulated. None of my parents taught me thier foreign tounges.
John II| 3.7.10 @ 12:02AM
I am not assuming anything. I am making an empirical observation about the apparently fake accent you're projecting in your impossibly unidiomatic English--if, as you claim, you've assimilated. If you are a third-generation American, your English could not possibly be so stilted. And if it were genuinely stilted because English is a recently acquired second language for you, it would be consistently unidiomatic, not erratically so.
You're the one who is assuming. And your use of the devil-term "racist" is inaccurate and imbecile, unless of course by "racist" you mean everyone who calls you on your fake accent. I am not a racist. I am a linguist. And I believe you are either a fraud or mentally unbalanced. In either case, I don't find your Borat-imitation particularly amusing.
Osamas Pajamas| 3.6.10 @ 2:47AM
I'm hoping that if they are on the brink of destruction by their bloodsxcking neighbors, the Israelis will unleash nukes on every Middle Eastern capitol and every "holy" site. I hope that they scorch the earth and leave nothing of value and nothing habitable for thousands of years. If the Islamofascists want war to the death, I hope that they get it --- and in spades.
Salman| 3.6.10 @ 2:56AM
You are pretty sad person.
Richard Baker| 3.6.10 @ 7:16AM
The "Palestinians" are a shiftless lot who seem to prefer living in squalor and sucking down other people's money instead of using their God-given abilities to improve their lot. How many billions did Arafat and his cronies loot from the money that was given to the "Palestinians?" I guess the headdress and revolutionary clothing cost more than I thought. Salman, I beg your forgiveness. I am disagreeing with the concept of the Good "Palestinian." Hateful me.
martin j smith| 3.6.10 @ 8:26AM
The tes of Arab and Palistinian motivation came when Yitzak Rabin was PM. Recall that Billy Boy Clinton pushed Netenyahu out for a more amenable Left leadership. Rain was willing to sell out the store so to speak--sadly, he was assasinated. But he point is The Intafada never stopped and Israelis as well as other outside Israel could that no matter what so called peacve talks accompplished, they did not stop attacks on Israe. Israelis learned from this episode that peace talks were a fraud, though they may have harbored these ideas prior to Clinton.
Now I think it is quite clear except for the anti-Jewish Muslim and western Left, that the "peace process" is all process and no peace. The only thing that will change the equation is if Arab Nations recogtnize the state of Israel as a Jewish State --borders to be negotiated-- period. Nothing short of that will bring a genuine peace to the region.
One final point, it is quite clear that if the Arab world made peace with Israel the economies of that region would flourish and could lead to greater modernization and thus Western influence. I think this is the real problem that everyone of importance will refuse to say out loud. The influence of Muslim Radical opposes Wester ninfluence,others religions and Modernization --all to the detriment of the population generally.
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Northern Rebel| 3.6.10 @ 10:46AM
Salmon is right:
Other Arab and Muslim countries have no use for the palestinians, They use them for their own goals, then cast them aside.
All the more reason to make peace with Israel. There is a sizable population of Palestinians inside Israel, and as long as they don't have to fear school busses being blown up, they have no animosity towards anyone.
The problem is, your reputation precedes you, and that takes a long time to change.
Ken (Old Texican)| 3.6.10 @ 3:03PM
Hi Rebel
Well ole' Salaam made only that one reasonable observation...in twenty pages of goofiness and apologia.
One thought: If somehow Israel poof disappeared, the stupid Palestinians would simply have ruins and deserts to squat in once more. Without an Israel, most of their income from dumbunny westerners would dry up. OOPS!
Sean| 3.6.10 @ 7:47PM
And what of Israel's income from dumbunny westerners?
Clinton Lovell | 3.6.10 @ 1:38PM
This will not end as long as there are liberals in America, because; the beating heart of every liberal is the cult of self-victimization. Liberalism is not a sustainable basis of governance, it is a life philosophy that seeks to make others responsible for the consequences of your decisions. Whether you are an individual, a group, a company or a government, the object of liberalism is to absolve the decision-maker of the necessity of suffering the consequences of their decisions so that they may continue to be the decision-maker/ruler/tyrant into perpetuity. For this to work, there must always be a convenient scapegoat upon which the responsibility for the outcome of the liberal decision-making can be consigned. This is necessary because those who accept the rulings of the decision-makers will, sooner or later, demand that someone be accountable for the outcomes. By providing a convenient "enemy" who is the chosen entity of de facto responsibility for the outcome, this puts off the day of reckoning as long as possible. Liberals accept this because it gives them, on average, as much an opportunity to rule as does the other system where there is legitimate accountability and a path for rectifying errors of judgment. At its core, the liberal cannot be guilty of an error of judgment because their fundamental mental make-up refuses to acknowledge the likelihood that alternative paths (that are not of their own contrivance) could work, as this would call into question the nature of their decision-making processes and bring about accountability sooner than would otherwise be desired.
The outcome of the liberal approach is to support those who will engage in the same kind of behavior and not to cast aspersions on these people as it would call into question their own fundamental hypocritical approach to decision-making. This means liberals will always support the victim because....
If there are no victims, then there are no villains.
If there are no villains then the day of the settling of accounts will immediately occur and liberals believe any reasonable "settling of accounts" will result in their own marginalization due to a lack of ability, effort, fairness and an in-bred personal lack of courage that prevents them from acting in a mature and responsible way as a productive member of society.
As long as there are liberals, there will be a home for Palestinian victimhood, but sooner or later we will all (finally) have to learn the lesson:
"There are no victims in this world and there are no villains; only volunteers."
Ken (Old Texican)| 3.6.10 @ 3:19PM
Welcome Clinton,
I sorta' look at the muslim culture as some sort of "macro-child abuse" situation.
They are so barbarous to their own young, generation after generation.
SALMAN| 3.6.10 @ 4:36PM
They say on T.V. racism is dead in America. HAHA. Perfect example right here. "I sorta' look at the muslim culture as some sort of "macro-child abuse" situation.
They are so barbarous to their own young, generation after generation.
"
John Navratil| 3.7.10 @ 10:32AM
Salman,
You have an interesting story and a chip on your shoulder. My father was displaced from Czechoslovakia after the war by the communists and my uncle got the privilege of being imprisoned for sixteen years. However, no one in my family or anyone known to me in similar situations has strapped a bomb-belt on and blown up civilians.
You really need to research the definition of racism where one's race is used to impute other characteristics. It is not racist to observe that a man is white, black or Asian. It is racist to suggest that because a man is of one race he must therefore be (fill in the blank). It is not racist to observe that Palestinian children have been used as suicide bombers and there are mothers who claim this a good thing. No one has said that because one is a Palestinian one must wish to kill one's children. If is also observable that this behaviour is strongly localized to this conflict and these people. Please, if you can, provide a counter-example. Please explain how it is racist to make this observation.
Gerald Stephens| 3.6.10 @ 5:21PM
...AND THE ABSOLUTE JOKE
Allah Obama through unparalleled intellectual force has developed a plan to permanently end the eternal conflict. 'Just wait'...either Israel will preemptively obliterate Iran or Iran's predilection for 'heavenly virgins' will impel them to the ultimate fantasy crusade that will result in the outcome of the first element of the or.
Jim O'Brien| 3.6.10 @ 5:38PM
The book to read is "The Israel Test", by George Gilder.
Obama wants Israel to make more unilateral concessions to Palestinians, terrorists, and terror-sponsoring states. Obama is WRONG again.
Larry| 3.7.10 @ 9:17AM
The Arabs who live in Palestine need to go back to their native homelands in Egypt or Jordan....or even better, go back to their ancestral homelands in Saudi Arabia, where they can dwell with their Arab brothers, all worshipping Islam together (that most benevolent religion of peace).
Neil| 3.7.10 @ 9:18AM
"And what of Israel's income from dumbunny westerners?"
Sean, What you conveniently seem to forget is dumbunny westerners, and dumbunny Arabs, for that matter, buy tremendous amounts Israeli made products. They have vital agricultural and manufacturing industry which the Arabs and more particularly the Palestinians should emulate.
The rotten wretched Jews would certainly, eagerly, show the Palestinians how to make their section of the desert bloom too. The Palestinians just don't want the help. They hate the Jews more than they love their children.
DaisyW| 3.8.10 @ 11:25AM
Would they really - show the Palestinians how to make their section of the desert bloom? Why did they not do that 60 years, 5o years ago. The answers they had no intention of ever helping those people. They have never given a damn about the Palestinians and their treatment of them is why the Israelis suffer today.
Neil| 3.7.10 @ 9:32AM
Salman says =="They say on T.V. racism is dead in America. HAHA. Perfect example right here". "I sorta' look at the muslim culture as some sort of "macro-child abuse" situation.
They are so barbarous to their own young, generation after generation.
"
Quotation is not refutation. Please exlain how the post was incorrect. Please explain how strapping explosives to your teenagers, indoctrinating your children into a pervasive intifada mindset and sending them off to martyrdom is not a type of Macro child abuse. This is all without mentioning the horrible treatment girls and women face in some of the Arab world.
Yosemeti Sam| 3.7.10 @ 10:53AM
" Why the Palestinians Don't Want a State ...."
Should have read " Why the Terrorist Palestinians Don't Want a State ...."
They'd then have to WORK for a living.
stmichrick| 3.7.10 @ 9:13PM
How can anyone who watched the funeral of Arafat believe these people are destined to form any kind of a state?
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