On January 28, the Wisconsin legislature passed
Assembly Bill 458, as amended, a bill dealing with sex
education. Both houses accepted Senate Amendment No. 1 that
required schools to include the teaching of (1) criminal
penalties for engaging in sexual activities with underage minors,
and (2) legal requirements concerning convicted sex offenders.
One of the sponsors of this amendment, State Sen. Glenn Grothman,
issued a press release on February 2 in which he observed that
Planned Parenthood had successfully objected to such a provision
in November and continued to object to this amendment through
December and January. In light of Planned Parenthood’s lobbying,
he urged the state legislature to protect children from Planned
Parenthood and reconsider state funding of Planned Parenthood to
the tune of $12 million annually. (We should note here that
Senator Max Baucus (D-Mont.), chair, U.S. Senate Finance
Committee, amended the Senate health care plan to include $400
million over five years on sex education.)
The children also need to be protected from the New
York Times editors. On February 7, they objected
to the Bush Administration requirement that abstinence sex ed
include teaching “that abstinence from sexual activity outside of
marriage is the ‘expected standard’ for all school-age children.”
The editors find this provision obnoxious. No, their objection is
obnoxious. It ignores existing criminal penalties. Underage
children cannot lawfully consent even to underage children, but
Planned Parenthood and the New York Times editors refuse
to state their real agenda: the removal of age limits on consent
so that children can have the freedom to engage in sex.
The New York Times editorial concerned a study
done by professors at the University of Pennsylvania published in
this month’s issue of the Archives of Pediatrics and
Adolescent Medicine and
reported
widely in the press. It is the only long-term study showing
that an abstinence-only sex-ed program can delay sexual
initiation.
I have read the article in Archives by J.B.
Jemmott, Professor of Psychiatry, and others, entitled “Efficacy
of a Theory-Based Abstinence-Only Intervention Over 24 Months: A
Randomized Controlled Trial with Young Adolescents.” I have not
yet read the full report filed with the National Institute of
Mental Health (NIMH).
There were 662 children involved in the study. Although the
students’ average age at the start of the study was 12.2, their
ages ranged at the start from 10 to 15.
The media accounts I have read do not report that only 563
students completed the two-year program. I assume the full report
to the NIMH would detail how a loss of 15% of the students may
have affected the results. The media also do not report that,
at the start of the study, 23.4% had already experienced
coitus (that is, vaginal intercourse) at least once. The
Archives article does not state how many students might
have already experienced oral or anal intercourse. It would not
appear that any of these students who had already engaged in
intercourse were excluded from participating in the study.
Over the next two years, the number of students within the
“abstinence-only” group who experienced sexual intercourse
increased to 33.5%. The number of students within the other three
groups (a control group who were given no sex education, the
students who were taught both abstinence and safe-sex, and the
“safer-sex-only” group) who experienced sexual intercourse
(presumably, vaginal, but the full report may reveal that it
includes oral and anal) had increased to 48.5%.
The press focused on the significant difference between the
“abstinence-only” group and the other groups. The press ignored
the fact that the eight one-hour modules on “safer-sex” had
no effect on either the use, or the consistent use, of
condoms when compared to the control group.
That 10% of the “abstinence-only” group engaged in
intercourse for the first time over a two-year period after they
had received more than eight hours of instruction, when some of
them were as young as 10 at the start, is hardly much cause for
joy. And the doubling, to almost half, of the students in the
other groups engaging in intercourse for the first time is
troubling.
It will be interesting to examine the full report made to
the NIHM to review the contents of the instruction given to these
children and adolescents. (I wonder how much information about
the content was conveyed to the parents who approved such
instruction for their children as young as 10.) The article
informs us that the instruction for all four groups consisted of
eight one-hour modules (one group had 12 modules) with “a
series of brief group discussions, videos, games, brainstorming,
experiential exercises, and skill-building
activities.”
As to the “abstinence-only” instruction specifically, it
was intended to differ from conventional abstinence programs by
not being moralistic or stressing the inadequacies of
condoms.
The 8-hour abstinence-only intervention encouraged
abstinence to eliminate the risk of pregnancy and STIs
[sexually-transmitted infections] including HIV. It was
designed to (1) increase HIV/STI knowledge, (2) strengthen
behavioral beliefs supporting abstinence including the belief
that abstinence can prevent pregnancy, STIs, and HIV, and that
abstinence can foster attainment of future goals, and (3)
increase skills to negotiate abstinence and resist pressure to
have sex. It was not designed to meet federal criteria for
abstinence-only programs. For instance, the target behavior was
abstaining from vaginal, anal, and oral intercourse until a
time later in life when the adolescent is more prepared to
handle the consequences of sex. The intervention did not
contain inaccurate information, portray sex in a negative
light, or use a moralistic tone. The training and curriculum
manual explicitly instructed the facilitators not to disparage
the efficacy of condoms or allow the view that condoms are
ineffective to go uncorrected.
A few observations on this passage. First, since sex was
not to be portrayed “in a negative light,” we may assume that
there was no instruction on criminal penalties for engaging in
sexual activities with underage minors or the legal requirements
for convicted sex offenders. Second, the authors refer to “the
belief that abstinence can prevent pregnancy, STIs, and HIV.”
Frankly, it is not a belief but a fact that abstinence
will prevent pregnancy, STIs and HIV; (of course, there
are other ways to exchange bodily fluids). This would be
consistent with the prior sentence, “The 8-hour abstinence-only
intervention encouraged abstinence to eliminate the risk
of pregnancy and STIs.” Third, the authors refer to delaying
intercourse until later in life whereas the federal criterion for
abstinence instruction is abstinence until marriage. The authors
make it clear that, unlike risk behaviors of smoking and drugs,
“the expectation is that people will eventually have sexual
intercourse [before marriage].”
The editorial in Archives that accompanied the
article in Archives cautioned policymakers against
drawing too much from this one study based on the policymakers’
“preconceived ideologies.” This invites us to consider the
“preconceived ideologies” of various parties associated with sex
education in this country. Many proclaim that they are interested
in “accurate information” — maybe accurate, but certainly not
comprehensive. Doctor Miriam Grossman is a medical doctor in the
field of child and adolescent psychiatry. In her 2009 book,
You’re Teaching My Child What?, she recounts how the
Montgomery County [Maryland] School Board provided Dr. Ruth
Jacobs, an infectious disease specialist, with only two-minute
opportunities to educate the board members. In the end, they did
not want to hear about the findings from histology, physiology,
anatomy, immunology, virology, microbiology, bacteriology, and
epidemiology. They want to educate and protect the children under
their care as much as Obama Administration Safe-Schools Czar
Kevin Jennings. (See Jeffrey Lord, “Pelosi
to Polanski to Jennings: Why Sean Hannity Is Right,”
The American Spectator, Oct. 6,
2009.)
So, the Board ignored, and it will be interesting to see if
the Archives’ study ignored in its “safer-sex”
instructions, such science as Doctors Jacobs and Grossman try to
impart:
Rank and File| 2.19.10 @ 9:41AM
Excellent analysis Mr. Thunder. Should we stop trying to keep people alive because they won't stop dying? Should we stop promoting marriage because people divorce? Should we stop promoting good health because people have weaknesses for sweets? Should we stop teaching our children to abstain from sex simply because some of them give in to their urges?
Absolutely not.
Simply put, there are myriad benefits to promoting abstinence. How ridiculous is the fact that we even have to have this debate, that you have to write this article -- especially where we're talking about kids as young as 10 years old?
How differently would men look at women if they were accustomed to controlling their urges? Might this change or affect the occurrences of rape? Even if it just "might" help with many of these issues -- which it obviously does -- it is still worth it.
And this study shows that.
Alan Brooks| 2.19.10 @ 6:00PM
First we have to stop over-glorifying sex as being "beautiful".
All my life I've been told sex is good. no it isn't, it is pleasurable, not good.
Morality is confused with aesthetics,
as pleasure is confused with happiness.
If sex were good then prostitutes would be our best citizens;
if sex were good we could elect pimps to public office (no jokes, please).
K Ralph| 2.19.10 @ 8:28PM
Sex is good when confined to it's proper role - that is in the case of marriage between a man and a woman, who desire to commit fully to each other and none other. Sex can be very, very good - not just pleasurable. You have mistaken "sex" for "lust" or the using of one's body for economic plunder. It can be an essential part of creating "oneness" out of two.
Alan Brooks| 2.19.10 @ 10:34PM
K Ralph,
Your's above is semantics. Whether you call it lust or sex, it is still an animal appetite, whether or not it results in the union of two into one.
A man and wife can pig out on lust and con themselves into thinking they are pious. Self deception means a man and wife can be grossly overweight slobs who think they are making love when they are in reality rutting like pigs.
I am interested in genuine Christianity, not white trash fake religion.
Alan Brooks| 2.20.10 @ 8:04PM
Have no idea whatsoever what to do about government; recently realized I had been thoroughly out-of-touch, like a blind man touching one part of an elephant but not comprehending the larger animal at all.
Am not progressive anymore, too old fashioned, think of religion more & more;
as escapism, yes, no doubt about it; yet hasn't politics become escapist? hasn't politics merged with celebrity culture to become sort-of TV Program writ Large? One part 'Survivor', the other half 'Jerry Springer'.
Not all religious orgs are coercive, some can use moral suasion without promoting religion itself. Religion and morality can be compartmentalized so that morality promotion becomes subsidiary to the primary function of the given religious org as anodyne and family counselor.
End of life counseling is v. important.
meilan| 2.21.10 @ 1:51AM
How differently would men look at women if they were accustomed to controlling their urges?
It is a joke !
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Sindi | 2.22.10 @ 2:02AM
Nice post!
Debra| 3.31.10 @ 1:45PM
Rank and File, Thank you for your comments. I totally agree with you.
Tony in Central PA| 2.19.10 @ 9:47AM
The article did well to expose the kind of cultural doublethink that so often goes on these days with respect to the subject of human sexuality. I would argue that the prevailing attitudes about human sexuality in most of the West these days has created an ethos that is quite simply unsustainable. ( Liberals, take your best shot at refuting this assertion ).
My sister - in -law is a family practice MD who all too often treats high school girls from apparently good families for STD's. She has to tell a significant number of them that they will not likely be able to have children. Somewhat surprisingly, she reports most of them seem unfazed by this news. Maybe this reaction is the result of the consistent brainwashing kids are getting that the least important purpose of sex is having children.
Alan Brooks| 2.19.10 @ 6:18PM
"She has to tell a significant number of them that they will not likely be able to have children."
Why should they have children? abstinence is best on all counts.
Be fruitful and multiply?
America will have plenty of births in the years to come from immigrants both legal and not.
Alan Brooks| 2.19.10 @ 6:47PM
a. Saltpeter and paxil milkshakes in skool
cafeterias.
b. Cold showers in skool gyms.
c. More abstinence ideals being taught in skools.
d. Chastity belts as presents for Christmas.
serlinda | 2.22.10 @ 2:04AM
Good idea!
Tony in Central PA| 2.22.10 @ 11:11AM
SDome of us have the radical notion that kids shouldn't be having sex, especially when it means the behavior can needlessly result in a lifetime of closed options and suffering as a result. For the same reasons, kids shouldn't be allowed to play with guns or eat whatever they want whenever they want it. Comprende ?
Felia | 2.22.10 @ 2:10AM
Good point!
KJW| 2.19.10 @ 10:51AM
A simple question: why do liberals, through their words, behavior and policies, seem to want to encourage children to become sexually active?
(I hope there is a different answer which follows but my own answers to the above question would be:
1. Liberals' collective goal is to rule over as many people as possible, and research and history have shown that a debauched populace is much easier to control.
2. Liberals, and man in general, do not like objective truth, but rather want to set the rules themselves. To most people, there is nothing quite so intimate as one's sexuality; therefore, that is the area where many people least like to be told what to do (or perhaps I should see, FEEL like they're being told what to do), making it prime territory for rebellion and encouragement of the same.
3. Dr. Laura Schlessinger once said "Guilt likes to recruit". Many of these people setting (or better said, removing) the rules may have much in their past that they feel guilty about...but if they help others make similar mistakes (and get on a path to become as equally miserable) their remorseful feelings are assuaged. At least temporarily so.)
Mick| 2.19.10 @ 3:45PM
KJW, you nailed it! The government schools and many of the recent generation of parents actually train the children to think of themselves as the center of the universe not being constrained by absolutes of right and wrong but are invited to decide for themselves using any internal ethics system of their choice to determine what is right for them.
Interesting, wasn't there a serpent in some garden somewhere that sold the same bill of goods (lie) to another young woman, how is that working out?
jd| 2.19.10 @ 5:49PM
KJW and Mick,
Right on! Both of you have said it well.
Alan Brooks| 2.19.10 @ 6:22PM
"Many of these people setting (or better said, removing) the rules may have much in their past that they feel guilty about...but if they help others make similar mistakes (and get on a path to become as equally miserable) their remorseful feelings are assuaged. At least temporarily so.)"
Occam's razor would say they simply are titillated by it all. Perv sells, baby. And all of you know it. let;s cut out the injured innocence, you have no idea how many laugh at your naivite'.
Appleby| 2.19.10 @ 12:23PM
Given the obsessive Marching Mommies who relentlessly scream MORBIDLY OBESE! at anyone who doesn't resemble a Stick Figure, and who make sure that every child understands that the more she weighs, the more likely she will be dead before morning and how tired we all are of hearing it...
I suggest we kill two birds with one stone and encourage girls to gain weight (it NEVER matters what boys look like, after all) and then they will not have to worry about sex, since as the Marching Mommies assure us, girls who weigh more than 98 lb. are not attractive to boys or men.
The girls will be much happier and the whole problem will be solved.
CJohnson| 2.19.10 @ 2:05PM
Why in all this sex ed curricula crap is there NEVER any discussion with teens about birth defect risks from unplanned pregnancies. Do teens get to observe FAS, FES, and preemies with learning difficulties caused by poor prenatal care, drug/alcohol use and lack of good nutrition?
Don| 2.19.10 @ 5:41PM
Finally!
Is it any wonder I call conservatives morons and liberals idiots?
You state what I have been waiting for some one to say. Underage people do not have the right of consent. Teaching them this at least protects them for up until eighteen which as we all know is still quite young.
Alan Brooks| 2.19.10 @ 6:29PM
But conservatives too teach sex is 'beautiful'.
Or at least they use the Bible to (often) infer that there is something sacred about sex.
I say hush this cry of sex being scared 'til a thousand years have past.
----------------------------------------------
Saltpeter and paxil milkshakes in skool cafeterias.
Cold showers in skool gyms.
More abstinence ideals being taught in skools.
Chastity belts as presents for Christmas.
Alan Brooks| 2.19.10 @ 6:32PM
errata: sacred, not "scared".
But, without joining Julia's Junior Anti-Sex League, I say hush this cry of over-glorified sexuality 'til a thousand years have past.
Alan Brooks| 2.19.10 @ 6:39PM
Hot off the presses:
(AFP) – British pop superstar Elton John stirred controversy in a magazine interview Friday when he claimed that Jesus Christ was "gay."
"I think Jesus was a compassionate, super-intelligent gay man who understood human problems," John said in an interview posted on the website of US celebrity news magazine Parade.
"On the cross, he forgave the people who crucified him. Jesus wanted us to be loving and forgiving. I don't know what makes people so cruel. Try being a gay woman in the Middle East -- you're as good as dead," said John, who is gay.
The Catholic League, the largest US Catholic rights group, condemned the comments.
"Jesus was certainly compassionate, but to say he was 'super-intelligent' is to compare the son of God to a successful game-show contestant," league president Bill Donohue said in a statement.
"More seriously, to call Jesus a homosexual is to label him a sexual deviant. But what else would we expect from a man who previously said, 'From my point of view, I would ban religion completely'?"
Alan Brooks| 2.19.10 @ 6:45PM
Coming Next:
"Jesus To Join NAMBA"
(AFP)
Roman Polanski announced today from Switzerland: "Jesus will return to Earth to join NAMBLA."
"Jesus just cannot resist all those cute young boys at the beach wearing bathing suits... Christ is human, you know."
Then a prison guard took Polanski back to his cell as reporters filed out of the visting area.
obadiah| 2.19.10 @ 8:38PM
sounds like morality is a blackjack the righteous use to beat up the sinners.
as i understand jesus, his message was something else. i read the parts about his coming not for the righteous, but for the lost. at any rate, that's what i need, not being beat up with morality.
Alan Brooks| 2.19.10 @ 10:40PM
Obadiah,
If guys can be macho, why can't Christians be righteous?
Margie| 2.20.10 @ 9:35PM
He did come for sinners. Sinners only! But He came for them and commanded them (and us) to repent. (turn away from sin.)~
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the Name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the Light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God." Jn. 3:16-21.
This is what He says. It's all true. It's the only hopeful way to live. And He invites you to come to Him.
Alan Brooks| 2.21.10 @ 9:35PM
that doesn't SOLVE THE PROBLEM.
We're stuck here on Earth, we are not in Heaven.
Margie| 2.22.10 @ 2:31PM
Spoken light a little short-sighted sheep!
Margie| 2.22.10 @ 2:33PM
oops. like.
Alan,
of course we're not in Heaven. Yet. But don't you agree that we all need to prepare? I think you do know.
Did you know that sheep have the ability to see only 3 feet in front of them? Yep. It's a fact.
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Kevin Riley O'Keeffe | 2.19.10 @ 8:55PM
You can't compare kids exposed to an abstinence-only sex education policy to ones exposed to a safer-sex education policy, because those kids live in entirely different communities, and their sex ed classes are probably like the 7th or 8th biggest factor in their rate of promiscuity. Kids in Sioux Falls, South Dakota are doubtlessly less promiscuous than kids in San Francisco, but the respective differences in their sex ed programs have very little to do with that. My guess is, you could switch the sex ed curriculums between those two respective communities, and the rates of teen sex, etc., wouldn't change very much. Its family, culture, religion, etc., that determines promiscuity rates, not silly "Health" classes taught by the part-time "Civics" teacher at some high school.
Aaron Andersen| 5.21.10 @ 11:31AM
Most, if not all, studies that compare the "Abstinence-only-until-marriage" program and the "Comprehensive Sex Education" program are held in the same area among different schools, if not, are held in the same schools among different groups. In other words, no it is not because of "differences in family, cultures, religion, etc.," but in the actual programs, which since the 60's have shown that the Comprehensive program has had any results on preventing the spread of STI's and unplanned pregnancies.
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Kellie | 2.19.10 @ 10:26PM
More and more kids are becoming sexually active at an earlier age and there needs to be legislation to help control pregnancy at such a young age.
Sam| 2.19.10 @ 10:26PM
I love all you adults talking about people my age as though you in your holiness know what's best for us. Let me bring you up to speed on a few points: No one is buying your abstinence only teaching. We believe telling us not to have sex is another way you'd like to control us, that we don't have the ability to make the decision ourselves. It's the same with underage drinking. It is illegal, but we do it anyway and in large numbers.
If you want us to behave like adults, start treating us like adults. Give information about sex- the positives, the negatives, the benefits, and the risks. Abstinence only teaching is extremely condescending. How do you feel when liberals treat you condescendingly?
Adult| 2.20.10 @ 7:18AM
If you wanted to be treated like an adult, then get a job and stop leeching off your parents, kiddo. Otherwise, shut your cake hole about all the things you want the right to do behind your parents' backs. If I were your daddy and knew you were online polluting a comments section with your arrogant sassing of your elders and betters, I'd take you out behind the woodshed and tan some respect into that sorry hide of yours.
Hell yeah, you need to be controlled, since you've obviously got no self-control. Apart from applying the hand of teaching to your little-used seat of learning to knock some sense into that fat and empty head of yours, I certainly also recommend to your parents that they confiscate every cell phone, mp4 player, and other digital device and computer you have and not let you have any of them back until you learn some respect for the wisdom and experience adults have in spades and that you sorely lack.
If that doesn't cure you of your parasitism and arrogant adolescence by the time you're eighteen, they should then throw you out of the house and refuse to waste a penny more on your food, shelter, and education. Let's see which of your lazy and empty-headed peers who leech off their thankless parents and then sass them behind their backs the way you do will take care of you then, you stupid brat!
Sam| 2.22.10 @ 3:03PM
Wow- for an adult, your stream of insults make you seem like a petulent little child.
Where did you get the idea that I'm lazy and am leeching off my parents? In fact, you might be surprised to know that they're proud of me and what I've accomplished. I do respect them- and they've given me considerable freedom in return.
I don't respect self-righteous adults like you who think that we are little children whose lives should be regulated. Did teenagers like myself bring America to the sorry state that it's in right now? Nope- that would be adults so go ahead and pat yourselves on the back.
I respect people who EARN my respect and if you think messing up this country merits my (and other teens) unconditional respect, then your deluded. It's called leadership by example- try it sometime.
Aaron Andersen| 5.21.10 @ 11:46AM
Now, I agree with you Sam, the abstinence-only program does not work and is really just an insult to the younger age group. People need to stop trying to push what they believe is "morally right" on to their children, when they could not even see for themselves what is right back in the 60's when all they did was smoke dope and have sex with multiple people, including strangers, at least our generations have sex with a limited number of partners. Of course, if they would stop shoveling money into the abstinence program and put it into the Comprehensive sex ed program, then we would be even more responsible, and reduce our risk of Sexually Transmitted Infections and pregnancies.
Aaron Andersen| 5.21.10 @ 11:40AM
wow, that is just sad that your parents treated you in such a fashion that you lack all respect for them, but are to afraid to confront them so you pass your anger and hatred on to the next group that you feel deserve to be treated how you were or less.
when it comes down to it though, your not helping, so next time just don't even throw your opinion in with the rest of the adults and go sit at the kiddie table eating your cheerios with the rest of the small children who cannot express their opinions in an appropriate manner.
Ryan| 2.22.10 @ 8:53AM
Oddly enough, you're right about one thing.
You need to be treated as an adult.
The more I see, the more I am convinced that you need to be able to live for yourself by the age of 16. No, your education isn't done, but this ridiculous period of no responsibility between 13-25 that we are placing on our kids does more hurt than good.
Alan Brooks| 2.19.10 @ 10:46PM
Sam,
No one is preventing anyone from having sex today.
I can remember back to 1960, and by 1969 a young person was more pressured to have sex than to not have sex.
By 1977 you couldn't get away from sex if you wanted to.
Andie| 2.19.10 @ 11:26PM
Interesting article. Your comment here, though, is incorrect: • "how chlamydia, even if cured with antibiotics, still renders women unable to bear a child to term because its scars cause ectopic pregnancies..."
That's actually not true. It would be true if the chlamydia were left untreated for a very long time, but chlamydia treated properly and promptly will not stop anyone from carrying a baby to term.
Aaron Andersen| 5.21.10 @ 11:53AM
Well of course it can be treated and prevented if caught early, but many teens do not even know that they have an STI, because they do not show symptoms or they simple do not know that they can be checked for STI's, because the abstinence-only program does not inform students about anything helpful. The program does not inform them that they have the right to get checked out, but the Comprehensive Sex Education program does, it also educates students about what the symptoms are, other STI's, how to prevent infection with condoms, and even that they don't have to have sex until they are ready, the program will also give them the confidence to say "no" if they are not ready.
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henry| 2.20.10 @ 2:45AM
Elizabeth the First was born when her father, Henry viii was about thirteen. She was a congenital syphilitic – Henry had syphilis.
A recent study from India showed that the average age of a prostitute there is twelve, and that of her customer 52.
The average life expectancy in Swaziland is 32, because of AIDS. More than 50 percent of the population there is under the age of twenty.
There’s nothing new here. You don’t need brains or insight to have sex.
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Oldefarte| 2.21.10 @ 10:58AM
It's fairly simple-----liberals believe in CONTROL/MANIPULATION for political purposes. As to sex education, parents only should be the teachers of same, not public schools. Liberals previously obtained control of public schools in order to brainwash vulnerable children, and are consistently doing so [not only about sexual matters but now, THE CHOSEN ONE'S greatness]. Clinton's HHS Secretary Joclyn Elders' proclamation on the virtues of masturbation began this brainwashing. When citizens/patents/Americans begin realizing this liberal brainwashing that is manipulating them via newspapers, public schools,etc and thereafter begin electing conservative political representatives, the pathway to solution of this sexual abstinence being taught in schools,etc will begin to become in place!!!!!
Margie| 2.22.10 @ 2:36PM
Ugh. The horrors of the Left. In a nutshell! (No pun intended but if the shoe fits). :^)
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LJC| 2.21.10 @ 6:52PM
Henry; I'm surprised you did not even check with wikipedia before you gave us your news on Henry VIII, who was 42, not 13, when Elizabeth was born in 1533. And what he probably had was not syph but untreated Type 2 diabetes
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