Special Report
Can You Hear Us Now?
A new movie shows the spirit of the Tea Party Movement.
Jenny Beth Martin didn’t set out to become a movie star. Yet Wednesday night at the Ronald Reagan Center amphitheatre, the mom from Georgia was a celebrity at the big-screen premiere of a new film that features a cast of thousands.
Wait — better make that “hundreds of thousands.”
Martin is one of several activists featured in Tea Party: The Documentary Film, which tells the story of how a movement that began in February with a few hundred people showing up at scattered protests culminated in September’s massive taxpayer march on Washington.
It’s “really weird” to be called a movie star, Martin said at a post-premiere reception she attended along with several of her fellow stars, including Dr. Fred Shessel and Revolutionary War re-enactor William Temple.
“I’m in this because I care about my country,” explained Martin, who is national coordinator of the online organizing group Tea Party Patriots.
Although the documentary (directed by Pritchett Cotton) uses Martin as one of a half-dozen featured “characters” to carry the narrative arc of the story, the true stars of the film are the hundreds of thousands of people who turned out to wave homemade signs and cheer speakers at Tea Party rallies all over the country during 2009.
The amazing growth of the movement is highlighted by one of Martin’s earliest on-screen appearances, showing her speaking at a Feb. 27 event in Atlanta, where a small crowd turned out on a cold rainy Friday. Martin subsequently explains that she was one of about 20 organizers on a Feb. 20 conference call that led to that first round of Tea Party gatherings, which followed commodities analyst Rick Santelli’s now-famous Feb. 19 rant on the CNBC network.
As the film makes clear, however, Santelli’s call for a Tea Party protest tapped into a deep vein of discontent that started growing among grassroots conservatives during the Bush administration. The documentary begins with audio of a Dec. 19, 2008, speech by President Bush advocating a bailout for the auto industry: “If we were to allow the free market to take its course now, it would almost certainly lead to disorderly bankruptcy and liquidation for the automakers.”
Indeed, although some have characterized the Tea Party movement as motivated entirely by partisan GOP opposition to President Obama, it was Obama’s Republican opponent, Arizona Sen. John McCain, who took the lead in advocating passage of the Wall Street bailout in September 2008.
Pushing back against media misrepresentations that have portrayed Tea Party protests as potentially dangerous expressions of ignorant populist rage, the movie carefully recounts the motives and methods of the movement. Early in the film, Martin describes her organization’s basic principles: “We want fiscal responsibility. We want constitutionally limited government.” Nor, contrary to media stereotypes, are the Tea Party people a dimwitted rabble of uncultured yahoos. In addition to being a Revolutionary War re-enactor, Temple is an artist who describes the research that goes into his historically themed paintings.
The Left’s frequent insinuation that racism motivates the movement is rebutted not only by the numerous faces and voices of black Tea Party participants — including one of the featured activists, a young man identified only by his first name, Nate — but also by Temple. One of the movie’s more powerful sequences shows Temple being confronted by a black minister who staged a counter-protest at a rally. At that point, Temple reveals that he is “a white pastor of a black church” — Maranatha Baptist, where he is shown leading a service. Temple then explains his Bible-inspired concept of brotherhood and says that if the Tea Party movement was racist, he wouldn’t be involved.
Many of the same critics who depict Tea Party rallies as gatherings of hateful troglodytes will simultaneously — and without evident irony — claim that the rally attendees are part of an essentially phony P.R. campaign funded and orchestrated by powerful GOP fat cats. The movie features House Speaker Nancy Pelosi saying that the protesters are “not really a grassroots movement. It’s Astroturf.”
That claim was thrown back in Pelosi’s face at the 9/12 March on D.C. The movie captures the moment when, facing a crowd estimated at upwards of 500,000, FreedomWorks organizer Brendan Steinhauser announced from the stage, “I understand Nancy Pelosi is out of town, but Madam Speaker, if you’re watching on TV, we just replaced the grass on the Mall with Astroturf.”
There is nothing secretive about the Tea Party involvement of groups like FreedomWorks, which sponsored the D.C. movie premiere. But FreedomWorks president Dick Armey says his organization’s role has been primarily one of supporting the efforts of volunteers. “Everything about the whole Tea Party movement … is pretty much ad hoc, really,” Armey said Wednesday night.
Despite what critics might say, participants in both the movement and the movie are convinced that their activism has made a difference. One of the scenes that drew applause at Wednesday’s premiere screening showed Martin inciting the huge Sept. 12 rally at the Capitol.
“We were not loud enough in February … in April … in July,” Martin said, and then yelled for the benefit of Congress and the president: “Can you hear us now?”
That brought a thunderous cheer from the crowd. The echoes are still being felt in Washington.
About the Author
Robert Stacy McCain is co-author (with Lynn Vincent) of Donkey Cons: Sex, Crime, and Corruption in the Democratic Party (Nelson Current). He blogs at The Other McCain.
Appleby| 12.4.09 @ 6:51AM
I recently saw the documentary Thine Eyes, about the March for Life in DC that occurred soon after Zero was inaugurated -- and which goes unreported to this day by the MSM. It too was made up of a broad cross-section of ordinary Joe and Joanne Six Packs (as well as Domingo and Marguerita Six Packs, and Shadrach and Congolia Six Packs) including lots of college students. (HINT: Many of us do not listen to anything chanted that starts with HEY HEY! HO HO! just out of reflex).
How long will it be until the people who are carping from the sidewalks about how out of touch we Ignorant Yahoos are realize that there are fifty times as many of us as there are of them?
Not much longer, I trust.
Red Phillips | 12.4.09 @ 8:43AM
We must not let the mainstream movement conservatives types hijack the TEA Party Movement which was started by a much more radical element. We must keep the movement radical and not let it get co-opted by the GOP.
Ken (OLd Texican)| 12.4.09 @ 10:28AM
Welcome back, Red
I always enjoy calling you "doofus" again.
"radical" my hind end! I have attended three here in the radical land of Texas.
...just a bunch of fed up Americans. We even cleaned up our trash. One Houston policeman commented: "Well this is the best smelling bunch of protesters I've ever seen." then laughed.
crank!
Al Adab| 12.4.09 @ 12:09PM
Ken,
I see it snowed in Houston today, earliest ever. Darn global warming anyway. We need a crash Govt. program to protect Bayou Bend from the impending flood.
Margie| 12.4.09 @ 1:25PM
Of course good 'ol RED doesn't want to fortify the GOP. Just what RED wants is what? Another split vote to re elect Obama? A third party with say, Ron Paul at it's helm. Yeah, that's the way to go. A no win situation and Obama II.
Red Phillips | 12.4.09 @ 6:26PM
The TEA Party movement was spontaneous and therefore it had different character in different places. But in many places the primary organizers were Ron Paul supporters, libertarians, Constitutionalists and other elements that are much less embedded with the GOP. Now conservative movement organs such as Freedom Works are trying to co-opt and claim credit for it. If the TEA Partiers lose their radicalism and allow themselves to become just another branch of the "GOP good, Democrats bad" crowd then it will be all for naught. (Sorry to break it to all the un-nuanced thinkers here, but the GOP ain't such great shakes either.)
BTW, glad to know Ken gets a charge out of calling me names instead of doing what armchair pontificators are supposed to do, think.
SeattleBruce| 12.4.09 @ 8:00PM
Now conservative movement organs such as Freedom Works are trying to co-opt and claim credit for it.
+++++++++++++
Co-opted in this context is another way of saying 'effective' and actually meaning something in reality. Tea Partiers are not a bunch of Ron Paul supporters...sorry.
victor| 12.7.09 @ 12:42AM
Hey Red, why don't you'all tell us about what the libertarians stand for and what you'd do if you had the white house, eh?
Red Phillips | 12.7.09 @ 9:45AM
Victor, philosophically, I am not a libertarian, I am a paleoconservative. People often assume I am a libertarian because I support following the Constitution and devolution of power back to the human scale - community, city, county, state then Fed - which would mean a radical decrease in power. If I had the White House I would simply attempt to follow the Constitution. Probably 80-90% of the what the Fed Gov does is not authorized by the Constitution. I would want to phase out most programs and abruptly end others. This would include ending our military role as world policeman.
Whatever you may think of this, you can not say it is not conservative. In fact it is reactionary. I want to restore the polity that our Founders left us. Imagine that.
BTW, look back at the original spontaneous TEA Pary organizers. MANY were Ron Paul supporters. In fact, that was a criticism of the movement from some mainstream conservatives.
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Jim Knapp | 2.3.10 @ 11:56AM
The movement has already been hijacked by the GOP.
The GOP is just as to blame for our problems as the Democrats!
All of the major TP groups, who have proclaimed themselves leaders, support being an arm of the Republican Party. This spells the end of the movement once the need for our votes is over.
If the movement doesn't evolve into a third party, the movment is dead, and nothing will change in Washington.
www.thirdpartypatriots.org
Pingback| 12.4.09 @ 9:02AM
Twitter Trackbacks for The American Spectator : Can You Hear Us Now? [spectator.org] links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Ret. Marine| 12.4.09 @ 9:34AM
Perception is the name of the game to the left wing base. They have been using this ploy for many years. It took a radical such a BO to stur up the hornets nest, we must thank him for it, he deserves the title of master of deception. While the base of astroturfers are at it, it would be helpful of the lamestream to put it into comtext but, we know now they are part of the problem. The little o and his marxist mumblers are having their way by meams of the deception, calling this movement nothing to worry about to his base will be the mistake they will realize only if and when the moral mass turns out to either inpeach him or replace him with a ture gritted American. One way or the other something is about to give, will it be our livelyhood or our enslavement to the state.
Al Adab| 12.4.09 @ 11:01AM
It was always said that the revolution wouldn't be on the front page. TEA party in all likelihood doesn't want to be part of the GOP. It covers a wide range of Conservative/Libertarian positions but the message is fairly simple: "Too much of our money is going to people and places we don't want it going."
It seems that the Left, now in control, cannot understand that our propert, our earnings, belong to us not to them. It's not a matter of what we are allowed to keep but of what we choose to give.
Grandma always said, "Those who do not listen must feel." She usually carried a razor strop about then. In any evert Congress and all levels might do well to listen. The goose will squak.
Pingback| 12.4.09 @ 11:13AM
The Greenroom » Forum Archive » Tea Party: The Documentary Film– It’s Real, and It’s links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
JIM WHITTAKER, Hemet, CA| 12.4.09 @ 1:04PM
This completely incompetent, totally arrogant
pathetic excuse for a national leader is the best
thing that's ever happened to the conservatives.
He's clearly shown, and continues to show every
single day what will happen to this great country
if the the Liberals are in charge. Failure!
This presidency is effectively over. Period...
Liberal Reader| 12.4.09 @ 2:19PM
RE: "Period..."
Dear Jim --
The statement "period," a performative that emphasizes the finality and self-evidence of one's prior statement, should be pointed itself with a period, not an ellipses, which opens the statement to a dizzying aporia.
Certainly though you've here demonstrated yourself to be an excellent judge of character: your insight is profound, and wisdom will die with you.
Presidential competence seems to be your special area of expertise, so I was wondering if you might say a little more about it. Exactly what has the president done that suggests he is "incompetent"? What might he have reasonably be expected to do differently?
Given your proven wisdom and obvious acumen, I'm moved to ask one further question. How would you advise the president now? What would you urge him to do next?
Appleby| 12.6.09 @ 7:24AM
Resign.
victor| 12.7.09 @ 12:53AM
LibReader emotes:
"Exactly what has the president done that suggests he is "incompetent"?"
What has he done to show that he is competent?
"How would you advise the president now? What would you urge him to do next?"
Attack the problem as Reagan, Kennedy, Gingrich and GW did:
Cut income taxes, capital gains taxes, corporate taxes and payroll taxes.
Productivity, revenues and GDP soared.
But since he doesn't believ in Free Enterprise, he won't and will levy more taxes, fees and surcharges, he will stifle the economy even more.
Speaking of stimulating the economy, here's a thought, we have 300 years worth of oil in the Rockies and 150 years of natural gas in the midwest, why not drill all you can and put that money back into the private sector, emplying who knows how many people, earning who knows how many billions of dollars and generating countless billions in taxes.
Nahhhh!
Fuhgeddaboutit!
He's a bloody statist and his desires come first.
Let them collect unemployment!
Liberal Reader| 12.4.09 @ 2:13PM
I like the shots of tea-baggers where 18th century clothes. Historical reenactments, like Dungeons and Dragons, is one of those harmless, goofy past-times for the nerdier and (perhaps) more socially awkward among us.
The problem is that tea-baggers don't have good historical sense, and my concern is that they believe that wearing these ridiculous costumes actually makes some kind of political point. You never know, especially given the overall incoherence of the movement's message(s).
Last year they protested tax increases that were not announced, planned, or approved by any governing body. At least until 2011, tax increases have been ruled out of the question.
A full third of the stimulus package was for tax cuts for the middle class, something these Confederate Flag and Swastika waving "revolutionaries" don't seem to understand or consider.
Anyway, McCain, you've certainly found your calling! I can't think of a better audience for you than these folks.
Margie| 12.4.09 @ 2:24PM
Liberal Reader:
Are you a Soros paid/Big Government paid whore?
Helen Donnelly| 12.4.09 @ 3:06PM
Dear Liberal Reader,
Just keep telling yourself all that drivel over and over. You are going to get a rude awakening, my friend. No good historical sense - really? It is because of our keen historical sense and knowledge that we realize if we continue down Obama's slippery slope of spending us to death, this country is done, and you won't recognize what is left (no pun intended.) So yes, just keep telling yourself we are a bunch of nutty know-nothings....we love to be underestimated.
God Bless!
Carpenter| 12.4.09 @ 5:14PM
@ Liberal Reader
If you have a point, why not just come out and say it? Your posts are invariably an agony of incoherence attempting to mask a very small opinion as some deeply intellectual truth. No evidence or actual data is ever necessary, but the sneer is always present (can you please explain the "tea-bagger" barb for those of us not as worldly as you?).
Eschew obfuscation!
Liberal Reader| 12.5.09 @ 12:19AM
Carpenter --
My posts contain more information than yours does. How is that I obfuscated? I think I've made myself pretty clear.
"Tea-bagging" refers to a sexual behavior in which a man dangles his testicles in someone's face.
Or, it refers to a ridiculous and contemptible activity carried out by Fox News viewers.
Margie| 12.6.09 @ 2:24PM
"My posts contain more information than yours does."
I can't believe I'm hearing this!
Wrong information.
Perverted information.
Garbage in. Garbage out.
Liberal Reader:
Are you a paid Soros/Big gov. whore?
Big J| 12.5.09 @ 10:40AM
Hey Lib:
It is painfully obvious that you haven't a clue what a "tax cut" truly consists of, so let me give you a clue.
A tax cut is a reduction in the percentage of earnings that is confiscated by the government (be it local, state or federal).
A $300 to $600 check is called a REBATE.
By the way, if you have the slightest care about sounding somewhat educated on a subject, look it up before you post on it. In addition to your erroneous statement regarding tax cuts, perform a brief fact check on this one: "A full third of the stimulus package was for tax cuts for the middle class...". That would be funny if I didn't think you really believed it.
Furthermore, your sophomoric use of the term "teabagger" has about as much affect as Keith Olberman's 20 minute tirade on the subject. He was giddy with self indulgence, really only convincing himself that he was being clever.
For the rest of the thinking world, we see the term for what it is: an admission of fear. Complete loss of the perceived control liberals THINK they have over the world and the people that reside here.
You know, I would tell you to grow up if I thought you were even capable. You have become so infected by the disease of Liberalism (and yes, it is a disease - one that consumes the rational portion of the brain at an alarming rate), that you refuse to subscribe to reality.
When did it happen for you, Lib? High school? College?
When did you stop believing in American Exceptional-ism and start seeing only the bad?
I send a sincere invitation to you: come back. It's not too late. The United States of America was, is and always will be the greatest force for good in the history of the world. It truly is the shining city on the hill that Reagan and many others see it as. The Marxist tendencies of the current administration not withstanding, we stand for freedom, prosperity and charity at home and abroad.
Denying that fact does not make it true, Lib.
You see, I am living PROOF, Lib. How else would a simple electrician with only a high school diploma go on to found a company that does $1 million in sales in a year, furnishes 9 paid holidays, paid vacation and free health care for his employees? All that in spite of the third highest tax rate in the industrialized world, with a tax code that sends 4 out of 5 new business owners to bankruptcy court in the first 5 years.
I wouldn't expect you to understand most of what I have written here, I am sure your professors didn't bring any of it up while you were obtaining your high dollar "education". I see it as the worst lie - the lie of omission. It has done you a great disservice, Lib. I hope you can undo the damage.
Big J| 12.5.09 @ 10:43AM
Oops! Correction:
Denying that fact does not make it true, Lib.
Should read:
Denying that fact does not make it false, Lib.
Double entendra or something, didn't go to college.
Liberal Reader| 12.5.09 @ 12:37PM
Big J --
You ask how an electrician (which is a highly skilled trade) goes to making "a million in sales in a year" while providing good benefits to his employees.
Well, J, I imagine he does it by working hard and being good at what he does. And if that's your story, I say, good for you.
I do understand what you've written better than you think; I think I understand conservative thought pretty well.
The "tax cuts" I was speaking about was NOT referring to the rebates from last year. 1/3 of the stimulus package -- signed into law in 09 -- represents tax cuts.
The stimulus ALSO sent aid to the states. What that aid means is a REDUCTION in what would otherwise have been the tax burden on middle class people.
Guys dressing in tights and three-pointed hats and marching around quoting Jefferson aren't any more patriotic than I am. Just considerably dorkier. Which is fine by me. It's a free country, and as I say, this sort of thing seems a harmless pastime. It is a little silly, if you ask me, and not very fact-based.
Big J| 12.5.09 @ 1:01PM
Lib, cite your tax cuts, and I'll concede. The stimulus is a giant slush fund, just like TARP (before either of these monstrocities, Bush also passed the rebate you are referring to). The stimulus DID provide for similar rebates THIS year (neither of which was sent to Big J Electric, as we have outstanding tax burdens. Apparently, Big J Electric doesn't need to be appointed to an executive cabinet position to pony up and make arrangements with the IRS, we just do it anyway).
What I don't understand about your logic is this:
You say, "The stimulus ALSO sent aid to the states. What that aid means is a REDUCTION in what would otherwise have been the tax burden on middle class people."
Is it accurate to note that you believe the non-stimulating stimulus package is NOT a tax burden on middle class people?
The logic I use implores me to believe that $787 billion, whether it goes to Nancy Pelosi's district in the form of swamp rat research or a pay-down of debt created by the bloated spending of California's state government is a TAX. Whether they directly raise taxes to cover the extra spending, or print it - devaluing our dollar, it's a TAX!
As far as your "tights and three-pointed hats" observation is concerned, I don't follow you. It has no relevant bearing on the conversation at hand. Regarding your patriotism, whatever you say. You haven't displayed any whatsoever in your posts here, but if it makes you feel better, go ahead - shout it from the mountaintops.
Liberal Reader| 12.5.09 @ 1:53PM
Big J --
Remember that one of the great contributing factors to the deficit right now is the RECESSION. It's sinking federal revenues.
But it's also hurting localities. The localities are being forced to raise often regressive taxes and fees, which hurt middle class people. The aid to the states relaxes this pressure, thus cutting the total tax burden on ordinary working people.
The stimulus also offers some tax credits and cuts for middle class people.
The first order of business for the government right now is to help end the recession. It can best do that by targeted tax cuts and targeted spending. That's what it's doing. It's not doing enough of it, but it's doing some -- and you're seeing the economy begin to produce again after nearly collapsing last year (under Bush).
Appleby| 12.6.09 @ 7:32AM
The first order of business of the government right now is GETTING RE-ELECTED. That is always their first order of business, but especially now, when people who are not members of unions or in elected office are pretty badly off.
One of the things liberals cannot seem to understand or choose to ignore is that there is only one taxpayer pocket. The Government produces nothing; it merely extorts from one group to lavish upon others. Therefore, the money ObamaLand is providing as *aid to the states* is money that it has previously extorted from the people of those states -- minus a hefty kumshaw that goes into the pockets of the collectors.
If the government takes $1 from me and graciously hands me 15 cents of Stimulus, I have not been Stimulated. I am out 85 cents.
Liberal Reader| 12.6.09 @ 7:49PM
Appleby --
You're right that politicians want to get reelected. That's precisely why the stimulus passed in Congress. It was the best way the government could help get the economy growing again. Believe me, if the economy isn't better this time next year, many won't get reelected. They understand this.
You're also very confused about taxation and government spending. Taxes are not "extortion." Taxes are fully constitutional; taxes are lawful; taxes are how we have a functioning society. True, we need to work at the right levels of taxation, and there are debates to be had about that, but taxation is not in and of itself theft or extortion.
Certain kinds of spending have what's called a 'multiplier' effect, so that it has precisely the opposite consequences from what you describe. A dollar spent properly may result in lower taxes down the road, or more room in the budget for necessary spending.
Again: Tea Party Economics is emotionalism and irrationalism and faux populism. You might think it looks fun because you too have a fantasy about wearing tights and three-pointed hats, but it's no way to govern a country.
Margie| 12.6.09 @ 11:23PM
"A dollar spent properly."
~Unbelievable!
Do you actually say that with a straight face?
We live in a free country not a dictatorship!
Perhaps you are a paid czar who is hired by Obama and getting ready to enforce this new "law" that now tells us how to "properly" spend our dollars?
You are seriously programmed. How can you possibly think this way?
You remind me of a complete Communist.
Big J| 12.6.09 @ 11:57AM
Lib, your ignorance is showing.
" Big J --
Remember that one of the great contributing factors to the deficit right now is the RECESSION. It's sinking federal revenues. "
Are you kidding me? The only contributing factor to the deficit is bloated government spending - $2.5 TRILLION with a "T" this fiscal year alone.
Last year, the United States government presided over the highest deficit ever - $480 BILLION (billion with a "B", smaller than a trillion).
But hey, don't led the facts get in the way.
Why don't we just spend some more and reduce the deficit?
It is no wonder you are not, never have been nor will you ever be self employed.
I think you just might be a great candidate for public office, however.
Liberal Reader| 12.6.09 @ 1:14PM
Big J --
You're only looking at half the picture.
Deficits are created by spending AND falling tax revenues.
The recession has contributed to enormous decreases in the amount of money the federal government can collect.
In a very real way, the government can LOWER the deficit by SPENDING money.
Now, of course, the government could simply reduce spending to the total amount it can collect in taxes. But this would be an economic DISASTER that is far, far worse than deficit spending.
The economy grows when people spend; right now, the wealthy are SAVING, the banks are NOT LENDING, and consumers are NOT SPENDING.
Unless you want a five year recession, you want the government to SPEND.
Now, this spending should not be indescriminate.
The government COULD pay people to rake leaves into piles and then pay them to scatter the leaves again so that they can be raked and scattered the next day.
This would not be good. However, spending that contributes value to the economy -- teachers, roads, health care, etc. -- does stimulate the economy while producing "goods" in both senses of that word.
The government can and probably should cut payroll taxes; I imagine you'll see such a move next year backed by Democrats and Republicans. This will greatly ADD to the deficit but will stimulate hiring, which will ultimately -- in the long term -- decrease deficits.
Tea Party Economics are too simplistic and vague, as far as I can tell, and they're deeply inconsistent. Where were the Partiers when the Republicans were spending OFF THE BOOKS on tax cuts for the wealthy, Medicare Part D, and the war in Iraq?
Margie| 12.6.09 @ 2:28PM
Socialist/ Marxist economics are very simplistic and vague:
Steal from those who have under the guise of "helping the little guy" and give it to those who have not.
Liberal Reader| 12.6.09 @ 2:41PM
Margie --
Sounds better than stealing from those who DON'T have to give to those who do. (See Bush tax cuts.)
But again: you're claim -- that collecting taxes and using some of it to stimulate the economy is somehow "Marxist" -- is false.
You couldn't understand Marxism and maintain this point. Indeed, this form of economics was developed to THWART socialism in the U.S., which was gaining ground in the 20s and 30s at a pretty frightening pace.
Margie| 12.6.09 @ 4:52PM
As usual you've got it backwards, but that IS your sole purpose, so I'm not surprised.
In truth (what I'm into), GW cut everybody's taxes.
In truth: Marxism is exactly what Obummer is doing. The money he is stealing from the taxpayers (the private sector) is being REDISTRIBUTED to the government (public sector) i.e. transfer payments, tax credits, gov't. subsidies.
I believe I just defined it pretty well, there.
There IS NO STIMULATED ECONOMY. (that would be us, the private sector). Real unemployment is almost 18% right now.
As to your last paragragh, you're mixing apples & oranges. Those decades couldn't have been more different. The private sector grew in the 20's, the public sector (Gov.) grew in the 30's, and taxes and regulations increased.
Liberal Reader| 12.6.09 @ 7:54PM
Margie --
ALL government spending is redistributive. Of course government spending redistributes wealth. What else WOULD it do?
The idea that the economy has not been stimulated is ridiculous.
Perhaps you were not watching the news last fall, but the entire financial sector the economy FAILED. It collapsed. That's about 60% of the economy. Trillions of dollars of wealth were destroyed. Not redistributed: destroyed. This set of a global crisis that threatened a second depression. The ONLY thing that prevented that second depression was government spending. The markets could NOT do it. The economists from both Bush and Obama administrations are entire agreement about this.
So call it Marxism if you want. At some point though it'd be a shame if you didn't take a little time to learn what Marxism actually is. I assure you it is NOT a program to reinvigorate capital markets.
victor| 12.7.09 @ 12:36AM
Simple Reader avers:
"Sounds better than stealing from those who DON'T have to give to those who do. (See Bush tax cuts.)"
Explain to me how lowering my tax rate from 30% to 25% TAKES or STEALS money from YOU.
Lowering tax rates allow TAXPAYERS to keep more of THEIR HARD EARNED money.
Money that obama has nothing to do with.
Big J| 12.6.09 @ 5:09PM
Lib,
You will probably disagree with this, but the only money that the federal government has to spend is the money it confiscates from productive members of society.
I don't know how a reasonable and intelligent human being could disagree with that.
Thus far, you haven't proven yourself to be reasonable or intelligent.
The government can and probably should cut payroll taxes? What would make you suggest such an insane idea? Could it be that the producers (did you call them the "rich", the only ones that got a break via the Booooooosh tax cuts?) are going to stop producing if they don't get to keep more of their eeeeeeeeevil profits?
"In a very real way, the government can LOWER the deficit by SPENDING money. "
Explain that statement, please.
Oh wait, never mind. You still haven't qualified ANY of your previous statements regarding "1/3 of the stimulus being tax cuts", how the federal government sending money to the states is a lower tax burden on the middle class, and several other relevant points I have raised.
Are these questions a little uncomfortable for you, Lib?
Lib, I'm very curious: what is it that you actually do for a living? I'm beginning to think that you either work for some government funded, left wing "think tank", or a professor at a left wing university (sorry for the redundancy), or you might be a guest writer for the left wing Huffington Post.
If you could enlighten me, it would help me justify some of your comments here. Most of them seem to come from the same political ideology that brought us the global warming hoax (oops! Sorry, I meant to say climate change hoax!).
LIberal Reader| 12.6.09 @ 6:46PM
Big J --
The government can lower the deficit over the long term by spending in the short term. Spending is keeping the private sector MOVING right now; as the economy grows, the government will COLLECT MORE TAXES, lowering the deficit. The taxes won't be collected at a higher rate; they'll simply be more wealth production to tax.
Your notion that tax collection is "confiscation" is inaccurate and unconstitutional, as it were.
The Constitution authorizes the federal government to levee taxes; the income tax is sanctioned by amendment to the Constitution. There is nothing illegal or fraudulent about taxes.
If you want to know what the Recovery Act provides for, go to recovery.gov. You can see for yourself how the money is being spent.
About the states: when states run low on funds, they cut services and lay off workers. This ADDS to the damage of the recession and it CONTRIBUTES to the deficit. If the federal government BORROWS money to prevent this kind of damage, it can -- in the long term -- get back what that borrowing contributes to the deficit and in addition by multiple factors CUT the deficit.
I know it's confusing; I know Glenn Beck hasn't drawn it out for you on his moronic blackboard. But there IS information out there to help you understand these things. You just need to avail yourself of better sources.
victor| 12.7.09 @ 12:21AM
Simple Reader Asserts:
"If you want to know what the Recovery Act provides for, go to recovery.gov. You can see for yourself how the money is being spent."
Is this the site that reported Congressional districts that don't exist?
Is this the site that reported jobs that were never created?
And BTW, how do you save and/or create jobs at the same time?
"The government can lower the deficit over the long term by spending in the short term."
That's only if REVENUES are increasing, which they are not because 7 MILLION people are NOT paing INCOME TAXES!
And we are SPENDING untold BILLIONS to keep them at home.
"The taxes won't be collected at a higher rate;"
Are you insane? The GW tax cuts are EXPIRING on 12/31/2009, so at the stroke of midnight everyone's taxes, (you included) will go up and people will have LESS money each week.
"You just need to avail yourself of better sources"
Such as listening to a president who actually WORKED for a living, ran a small business or has something to do with meeting a payroll.
This person has absolutely no idea, and neither do you, how to make and keep money.
He just knows how to spend it and print it.
And you sit there apologizing and making excuses for him.
Ronald Reagan took an economy that was far worse, perhaps you are not old enough to remember the paradise that was Jimmy Carter's America.
He inherited the Carter-nomics, stag-flation economy of Carter:
High Unemployment, High Interest rates, High Inflation.
"There is nothing illegal or fraudulent about taxes"
Except for those frauds such as Clinton and the democrat controlled Congress that had no intention of keeping Clinton's promise of lowering taxes.
In fact, people making as little as $20K/yr had their income tax rate increased from 11% to 15% (a 36% increase) by a reneging Clinton.
Cutting tax rates always increases revenues.
PS Obama is NOT cutting any taxes, they are rebates, credits and transfer payments.
This will only stifle productivity and growth.
Reagan cut taxes and we had FIVE straight quarters of 8% growth in 1983 and 1984.
Speaking of Blackboards, maybe Obama could teach us his theory of economics the way he taught ACORN community organizing in th e90's, eh?
victor| 12.7.09 @ 1:00AM
Liberal Reader lies as on he/she/it can:
"A full third of the stimulus package was for tax cuts for the middle class"
NO TAX RATES have been cut. What was proposed were rebates, transfer payments to those who pay NO taxes, credits and unemployment extensions.
TELL US WHOSE TAX RATES WERE CUT!
Tell us what Obama and his band of Merry Men are going to do to stop the Tax Cuts from expiring on 12/31/2009?
Tell us, oh, tell us, oh, tell us, please?
PS Why has Obama not told anyone that the Klunker Rebate and the Homebuyer Rebate are Taxable?
Oh, and those reductions in the payroll deductions were also taxable?
philfl63| 12.4.09 @ 10:11PM
Dear Liberal Reader,
Your moniker says it all.
Liberal Reader| 12.5.09 @ 4:02PM
Is that supposed to be a criticism, or what, philfl63?
UpChuck.Liberals| 12.4.09 @ 11:20PM
Liberal Reader????? I didn't know that Liberals could read. They sure as hell don't read History books. Liberals sure love repeating history to see if it's different the next time around. Kinda like a crazy person.
UpChuck.Liberals| 12.4.09 @ 11:20PM
Liberal Reader????? I didn't know that Liberals could read. They sure as hell don't read History books. Liberals sure love repeating history to see if it's different the next time around. Kinda like a crazy person.
UpChuck.Liberals| 12.4.09 @ 11:21PM
Sorry about the double post.
Brickhouse| 12.6.09 @ 6:18PM
Recall the paid protestors (Acorn) bused in to protest in front of the homes of AIG executives? Protests at their homes made the executives feel vulnerable ("they know where I live"). Maybe instead of protesting in Washington, D.C., we should be protesting en masse in front of their homes and on their lawns. Might be more effective...
Liberal Reader| 12.6.09 @ 8:00PM
In front of WHOSE homes and on WHOSE lawns?
Who is the enemy, Brickhouse. No self-respecting white nationalist, revanchist, know-nothing, Glenn-Beck-watching proto-fascist can be without his enemies list! Tell us! Tell us!
victor| 12.6.09 @ 10:59PM
We can start with your house, if you like.
Liberal Reader| 12.6.09 @ 11:45PM
This is funny. You're funny, victor.
victor| 12.7.09 @ 1:45AM
Liberal Reader whistling past the graveyard:
funny.. funny
12/31/09 is coming and you cannot stop it!
Curious American | 12.6.09 @ 10:31PM
I'd like to know how many people who attend Tea Party rallies do not believe Obama is a citizen.
I'd also like to know how many of them believe he may be the anti-Christ.
Does anyone have any figures?
victor| 12.6.09 @ 10:58PM
Yes, we all do.
Obama, by not showing the documentation that we all have to show, either for employment or a Driver's License, shows that he is contemptuous of us regular folk or he thinks himself above the law.
And yes, he could be a small "a" anti-Christ.
And if he is the real Anti-Christ, you better be prepared to find out.
Richard Baker| 12.7.09 @ 7:28AM
Just like the lefties. By their use of a homosexual term for perversion, they try to trivialize, as they do in most things, a movement which has its beginnings in the activities of the Founding Revolutionaries and the poor liberal babies just can't stand it. My Revolutionary heroes are Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, and Caesar Rodney. Yours are pathetic in comparison.
Richard Baker| 12.7.09 @ 7:30AM
Correction:
Your modern day heroes are pathetic in comparison.
richard mcenroe | 12.8.09 @ 12:57AM
" If the TEA Partiers lose their radicalism and allow themselves to become just another branch of the "GOP good, Democrats bad" crowd then it will be all for naught. (Sorry to break it to all the un-nuanced thinkers here, but the GOP ain't such great shakes either.)"
Here in CA we have a bunch of new young GOP candidates who are wisely networking directly with the Tea Party movement, rather than waiting for the flaccid and largely ineffective CA GOP to play catch-up with the new political reality infusing their base.
Richard Baker| 12.8.09 @ 7:51AM
richard mcenroe:
The present GOP leadership seems to be terrified of being called names by the Democrats. They're going to do that, regardless, and the Tea Party movement touches base with the fundamental foundings of the country. A connection to Jefferson, Adams, and Washington is fundamental or otherwise what did the Founding Fathers and the Continentals struggle and suffer for? To throw it all away for a government hammock? Way to go in California.
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