The American Spectator

JAWilson| 11.20.09 @ 6:57AM

Some advisor told Brack that the conviction and death sentence was a certainty. What dope sold him that deal? Holder who defended 18 of them? Axelrod who gets everything wrong on a national scale? Emmaneul who would bite the head off a dog if it screwed the Republicans some more? Who told Brack that the stoopid deal was a good deal?

Dixie Pixie| 11.20.09 @ 1:00PM

AG Holder
The same guy who ramrodded the Elian Gonzalez affair.

victor| 11.21.09 @ 12:15AM

The same guy who pardoned the FLAN terrorists under BJ Clinton. That guy Holder?

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 7:11AM

What about an innocent civilian wrongly accused as a terrorist. Say, one abducted from a street in his hometown, far from any battlefield, who was then held incommunicado in one of our gulags, in solitary confinement, with no access to counsel and no contact with his family for years. That innocent person should not be allowed to defend himself in open court?

Steve| 11.20.09 @ 7:24AM

Gee, Toddard, that pretty much describes my experience with the IRS over the course of a long and eventful life.

*Innocent civilian*, my ass. Your very premise is ridiculous.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 9:15AM

No, it's not, Steve. We have captured people we alleged to be terrorists, and later - in some cases, years later - set them free due to their innocence.

This is fact. It's not altogether important that you believe it - just humor me. If it WAS the case that we had abducted (far from any battlefield) and caged innocent people, is it your opinion that they should not be allowed to defend themselves in open court?

stephanie| 11.20.09 @ 1:21PM

Why do hate your country so, Stoddard?
Why do you side with the terrorists?
Where is your loyalty to America?
Why do you pester us with your stupid verbage?
Go troll the HufPo and leave us who love this great country alone.

T L Morton| 11.20.09 @ 4:00PM

It is not a matter of "siding" with terrorists. It is making sure everyone has a right to be heard and to defend himself...even terrorists. I know giving a terrorist "rights" is considered ridiculous by some, but ask yourself who has the authority to define what makes a terrorist? The Patriot Act allows a person deemed an "enemy combatant" to be picked up and locked away without anyone knowing. That person does not have a right to be heard, represented, or even told why he was jailed. He is simply detained indefinitely. Maybe the government will declare people with black hair are enemy combatants. Or those with blue eyes. Maybe those who speak out against big government. How about those of a specific race or religion. It would not be the first time a segment of the population was imprisoned for political gain and power.

Conrad Spiracy| 11.20.09 @ 4:32PM

You imbeciles.

1. KSM is not an American citizen. Therefore, he has no civil rights in our country. He has no right to be heard, no right to a jury of his peers (if one convenes, we should arrest all of the jurors for also being terrorists).

2. KSM was taken into custody overseas, not on sacred American soil. The only reason a civil trial is even considered is because he has been held on American territory in a foreign nation (Cuba).

3. Richard Reed (the shoe bomber) is an American citizen. He WAS provided the proper civil rights allowed by our American judicial system. And his terrorist a$$ was convicted.

4. By trying KSM in an American civil court, we are opening a true Pandora's Box of unintended consequences. Don't ask me to cite - just THINK you silly b@$t@rds! Oops - I forgot, you can't think, you just react. Sorry.

5. In concurrence with Steve, I beg you to research the "long train of abuses and usurpations” (see Declaration of Independence) of the IRS against people who have complied with regulations, but have been absolutely destroyed by the despotic practices of that vainglorious organization. Where the IRS is concerned, you are assumed guilty until proven innocent – all the while depleting your own wealth against the confiscated wealth of the federal government.

THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE!

Excelsior!

ConSpiracy

Paul Woodworth| 11.20.09 @ 10:14PM

Even a military tribunal hears the evidence, provides the accused with a legal representative, and does not prejudge the outcome. You can get a fair trial in a tribunal as well is in civilian court. Not everyobe tried by a tribunal is convicted. Since he was captured overseas by the military, his trial belongs in that jurisdiction.

panama| 11.20.09 @ 4:01PM

Hey Toadard, in case you didn't notice, this guy has already admitted his guilt in public......I suppose you still think he is innocent?

michael t reed| 11.20.09 @ 9:11PM

Give us a quick synopsis of ALL or ANY of the innocent people caught up in the US dragnet of innocent terrorists?

victor| 11.21.09 @ 12:34AM

Here are some that were freed due to their "innocence"?
http://abcnews.go.com/images/P.....090526.pdf
Those "innoncents" soon returned to the battlefield and continued to kill Americans.
Pity that those who are protesting their incarceration don't know any of the fallen soldier's kin.
What would they say to them, eh?

Saxton| 11.21.09 @ 8:42AM

Why can't anyone see that this is a set up??!! Obama Hussein..has no LOVE for America neither does anyone in his cabinet--his mother hated America & his Kenya father..he was raised in Indonesia until he was what 11? His love is for the muslims..look at his actions! IRAN, Ft. Hood, 9/11 (a day of service??) CAIR, Acorn, his faith on&on;. Have you read his mentors book...(FMD)the SEX REBEL?? I say impeach him and ALL of those who show no love for this country ! His CZAR team has cut medicare for seniors; across our country old people do not get free meals (gone);16 M nursing homes (shut down);now women are being attacked for mammograms?? Are you kidding me????!!!!! Next prostate-checks! !! This CAP&TAX; is to support Europe off the backs of Americans-I am mad as hell & I say get out!

Robert Dobson| 11.22.09 @ 9:25AM

Saxton, right on! Out of the UN, impeach BHO and his czars and fire congress. It is so sad to watch our country be destroyed by Alinskites. If BHO is not the antichrist, he sure is a minion.
Bob

old white guy| 11.21.09 @ 11:13AM

they have already confessed. no need for a trial.

doogle| 11.22.09 @ 7:32PM

You been watching too much SNL. You're gettin' confused about reality.

Occam's razor| 11.22.09 @ 6:05PM

Yes, Americans' fear of their government IS well-placed.

Tim| 11.20.09 @ 10:09AM

Apparently that civillian wil be given a fair and free trail in open court, found guilty and executed.
That innocent person would be better off facing the military tribunals, which have released people, than this Obama Kangaroo court.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 10:17AM

That is a very good point, actually.

Tim| 11.20.09 @ 10:34AM

And this business about Holder having a conflict of interest. That can work against the defendants. Obama can use Holder to pressure the defense to roll over so as not to embarass him .

Bush on his most Cheney'd day never once ran his yap about how the tribunals would be fair and lead to executions.

Son Of Sam| 11.20.09 @ 10:57AM

no kidding Toddard...it IS a good point. Matter of fact, its the main point of the article. Or did you take the Senate Democrat voting on health care approach, and not even actually read the article?

Good GOD Barbie, how do you put your bra and panties on in the morning?

stand strong until freedom dawns
Son Of Sam
http://www.samadamssos.bravehost.com/

Ray| 11.20.09 @ 10:36AM

What about innocent Americans charged, tried, and convicted with a criminal crime and imprisoned for years, only to have their innocence "discovered" years later and released?

As with any human system, mistakes are made and, hopefully, corrected when discovered. That's the way it is, Toddard. You seek perfection when none exists.

L. Ross| 11.20.09 @ 1:42PM

SLT.
I will say that you are consistent on this topic. Your terror that we as a nation may have imprisoned an innocent seems genuine. I respect where you are coming from.

I strongly disagree with where you line of thinking goes, however. I would rather have a flawed, vibrant nation muddling along as best it can than what you would offer. I believe you would rather see us commit collective suicide than risk harming any innocents. That type of thinking is what drives the contempt most of the writers have for you here on the AmSpec site.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 3:32PM

"I believe you would rather see us commit collective suicide than risk harming any innocents. That type of thinking is what drives the contempt most of the writers have for you here on the AmSpec site."

And my contempt is fueled in large part by (what I consider to be) the cowardice necessary to consider the terrorist threat an existential one. Even if we let every detainee free, and armed each of them on the way out, it wouldn't amount to "collective suicide". They simply have no capacity to literally end the life of the U.S.A. That "conservatives" have so little faith in the United States as to think we could be wiped from existence by that pathetic, ragged rabble is disturbing to say the least.

Becky Jo| 11.20.09 @ 7:31PM

My understanding, is on this planet 1 in every 5 human beings is a muslim. There goal 5 in every 5. Muslim means 'submit'

old white guy| 11.21.09 @ 11:15AM

correct.

DVG| 11.21.09 @ 11:54AM

First off, even if true, that is not the point.
You obviously have no regard for individual freedom. This country was founded to protect the individual from the tyranny of the masses and government.

Second, we are killing terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan. Without a trial. Does that not constitute a violation of law then?

You seem to be a koolaide lite type of person.
Perhaps you will see the light yet.

Alan Brooks| 11.20.09 @ 2:42PM

(that's GULAGS [acronym] )

Do you know how well prisoners eat here? Better than your cucaracha-eating kin in Latin America.

A Solzhenitsyn| 11.21.09 @ 12:48AM

that would be the following for those non-believers:
Glavnoe Upravlenie ispravitel’no-trudovyk h LAGerei.
Otherwise known as Main Administration of Corrective Labor Camps
Try reading "One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich"
"Один день Ивана Денисовича"
Odin den' Ivana Denisovicha

James Biggar| 11.21.09 @ 6:21PM

Oh for Chrissake Toddard. KSM has already said he did it. A military court is more appropriate to try him because they have guns. He deserves a Chinese style execution. take him out to field, kneel him down and give him one in the head. If it turns out later that he was really, really innocent, tough. Or better yet kill him the way we used to do it here in colonial Cambridge, Massachusetts. Hang him from the public scaffold and let him hang there 'til he rots off.

CB| 11.20.09 @ 7:22AM

Coulda, shoulda, mighta, and what ifs don't apply here Toddard....

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 9:16AM

Of course they do - we have detained *alleged* terrorists. Whether they "coulda" done it effects what we "shoulda" do.

Ray| 11.20.09 @ 10:23AM

Some of those "alleged" terrorists, after being determined as "innocent" and released, have been recaptured in combat, attaching American troops. That's something you've NEVER admitted, or even acknowledged. So, Toddard, just how 'innocent" were they after all?

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 1:20PM

I don't see how it's relevant. I've never asserted they were ALL innocent.

John| 11.21.09 @ 6:58AM

S.L. Toddard would be right at home as the deck chair arranger as the HMS Titanic sinks.

Appleby| 11.20.09 @ 7:25AM

These are the people who went joy-riding in Air Force One specifically for the purpose, one suspects, of terrifying and laughing at New Yorkers as they rushed from their office buildings and high-rise apartment buildings.

These are university sophomores who have suddenly been given the keys to Mommys place in the Hamptons for the week, along with all the charge accounts.

If you voted for these people in order to get back at your parents or The Man or to poke a stick in the eye of Whitey, now you know what you reap when you sow the wind.

If you are too young to have studied literature, you can look that up on Google.

dana| 11.20.09 @ 4:07PM

smart

Lawrence Boccardi| 11.20.09 @ 7:30AM

Hear, hear, Appleby!!!

Margie| 11.20.09 @ 12:17PM

I second that emotion, Appleby!

I heard a woman caller to the Glen Beck show this morn who suggested that Obama is allowing this whole Fed court fiasco so that he doesn't have to be seen as dealing with his brother Muslim terrorist directly. This way he also doesn't anger his brother Muslims either.
~Bingo!

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James Dougherty| 11.20.09 @ 7:46AM

Bringing these thugs to the US is the way this administration will set them free.

victor| 11.21.09 @ 12:50AM

As soon as they set foot here they will be EQUAL to you and Toddy.
He doesn't mind, of course, since there is nothing exceptional about being an American.

Pete| 11.20.09 @ 7:53AM

Obamas philosophy is simple it goes like this . They win we loose I love it caues we suck

victor| 11.21.09 @ 12:53AM

His favorite tune is "My Heart belongs to Mahdi"
from the hit musical about Barack Obama, "Leave it to ME!"

Melvin| 11.20.09 @ 8:10AM

Ahh,come on Toddy stop spewing the same old party line over and over. I thought you were smarter than that.
In the middle East there is no such thing as innocent civilians. There are two groups. Those who actively participate in the jihad, and those who support the jihadist.
Muslims are Muslims no matter how much tea that you drink with them, and no matter how many smiles and handshakes are produced at the end of the day he or she is a jihadist or supporter of jihad.
I'm sorry Toddy, if you are too naive to see that. This is how it is spelled out in the Koran. You and me are infidels, non-believers Toddy period. We are giving three options, convert, enslavement, or be killed, thats it. No innocents here Toddy.
Toddy, have you ever heard what a pregnant woman sounds like when she hits the concrete pavement at terminal velocity as she tries to escape a burning building once called the World Trade Center. The sound is like a big balloon popping Toddy.
Multiply this sound by hundreds Toddy as other people inside the WTC had to make the gut wrenching decision to burn to death or jump to death. Yea Toddy, kind of blows your innocent civilian theory at out the window doesn't it?
To Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and the other co-conspirators there are no innocent civilians.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 10:05AM

Congratulations - you have posted the most ignorant, idiotic, ill-informed, bigoted, poorly reasoned post I have ever read here (excluding Margie's). It's staggering, the level of stupidity and ignorance you've displayed in those few paragraphs. I'm truly taken aback.

Ray| 11.20.09 @ 10:37AM

Have you ever read the Koran?

Ken (Old Texican)| 11.20.09 @ 1:10PM

Hello again....."Crank"

Bend over and assssssume (darn, arthritus), THE position. heh!

Melvin| 11.20.09 @ 2:53PM

"I'm truly taken aback." You should be Toddy, because that is what the Jihadists have in mind for you.

Margie| 11.20.09 @ 12:35PM

Tell the truth in a simple, graphic way and you will always outrage the Hoity-Toity liars, and protectors of terrorists. They may even seeth your name from their hateful hearts as a reference point when you aren't even around!

L. Ross| 11.20.09 @ 2:54PM

Frankly, Melvin, that is one of the best, most accurate posts I have seen here on AmSpec.

Melvin| 11.20.09 @ 3:17PM

Thank you Col. Ross. Toddard fails or ignores that fact that we are dealing with a 12th Century mindset. It cannot be rationalized in modern terms.

Sue| 11.22.09 @ 5:27PM

I believe Sharia law came out of the "Suleyman, the Magnificent." Regardless, Muhammed's directive is to "kill all infidels" or "make them slaves."

There is no such thing as a "moderate" Muslim. I don't care what anyone says. The "proof" is in the "head chops," the "stonings" and the lack of outrage by the leaders of the muslim countries.

victor| 11.21.09 @ 12:57AM

If you release them under the mistaken notion that they will be grateful and kill no more, you are simply mistaken or simply delusional:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/polit.....eleas.html

Islam is not a religion of peace.

free realms coins| 11.20.09 @ 8:22AM

Obamas philosophy is simple it goes like this . They win we loose I love it caues we suck .

victor| 11.21.09 @ 1:00AM

All I hear when Obama speak is ''crap crap sorry sorry america suck crap''

fallen earth chips| 11.20.09 @ 8:47AM

Obamas philosophy is simple it goes like this . They win we loose I love it caues we suck

TennesseeVolunteer| 11.20.09 @ 8:48AM

Many Americans like myself feel an invisible bond to the tragedy of 9/11 in New York but are also uplifted by the bravery of the New York people and their public servants. This years anniversary of 9/11, for some reason, weighed very heavily on me.
From the beautiful fly over state of Tennessee, I have grave concerns about the safety of our friends in New York. I fear they have been sold down the river by an administration whose every move is for themselves and their own agenda and has absolutely nothing to do with justice or the safety of these brave, unbowed citizens of New York. This administration and their actions are making New York a target rich environment for possibly years and also the rest of America when the Gitmo 'all stars' are housed in prisons in America. The killings at Fort Hood lay at the feet of 'political correctness'. I fear that other deaths and injuries, and the sheer terror of feeling unsafe in America, is being unloosed by these politically correct, leftist liberals. All for their unsacred goal of making everyone the same while enriching themselves.

steponbugs| 11.20.09 @ 9:12AM

Toddy: your naivete is blinding. Please post the story of the innocent civilian who was abducted from the street in his hometown, then held incommunicado in one of our gulags, in solitary confinement, with no access to counsel and no contact with his family for years. I will gladly submit your account of this innocent victim of American cowboy imperialism to the Pulitzer committee on your behalf.

We are infidels, period. In the eyes of the believer, we must convert to Islam or die, preferably by their hand. KSM and the boys should have quietly disappeared into the night, not be given a likely 5 year-long forum to proselytize and draw other misguided losers like Maj. Hasan into jihad. It's going to get uglier...

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 10:16AM

Um, okay:

"Maher Arar (Arabic: ماهر عرار) (born 1970) is a telecommunications engineer with dual Syrian and Canadian citizenship who resides in Canada. He is famous for the outcry resulting from his deportation by the United States government to Syria. Arar has claimed he was tortured while in Syria. His experience has been put forward as an example of the United States government policy of "extraordinary rendition".[1][2][3][4]

Arar was detained during a layover at John F. Kennedy International Airport in September 2002 on his way home to Canada from a family vacation in Tunis. He was held in solitary confinement in the United States for nearly two weeks, questioned, and denied meaningful access to a lawyer. The US government suspected him of being a member of Al Qaeda and deported him, not to Canada, his current home, but to his native Syria, even though its government is known to use torture.[5] He was detained in Syria for almost a year, during which time he was tortured, according to the findings of the Arar Commission, until his release to Canada.[6]

The government of Canada ordered a commission of inquiry which concluded that he was tortured.[7] The commission of inquiry publicly cleared Arar of any links to terrorism. The government of Canada later settled out of court with Arar and awarded him a C$10.5 million settlement.[8] The Syrian government reports it knows of no links of Arar to terrorism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar

He was released by the US and now lives in Canada. Due to his seeking damages for his abduction, confinement and torture, the US - despite releasing him - refuses to exonerate him.

Isn't it comical, that "conservatives" now passionately embrace torture, gulags and kangaroo courts? I am old enough to remember when America was still an arguably great country, and as such every good American considered such things the hallmarks of corrupt, morally degraded 3rd world dictatorships and communist regimes. Now supporters of the GOP have staked out a position on that same moral low-ground beside their moral peers Stalin, Saddam Hussein and Idi Amin.

How very, very far we have fallen.

Ray| 11.20.09 @ 10:25AM

444 Days of Captivity. Does that ring a bell with you?

victor| 11.21.09 @ 1:03AM

He doesn't remember, but I do. The incompetence of Carter's "foreign policy" led to the taking of American Hostages.
To this day Carter lives in Infamy.

Ray| 11.20.09 @ 10:31AM

By the way, Toddard, Democrats are not immune to unconstitutional interment practices. Just ask the Japanese Americans who were unconstitutionally interred for years under the command of FDR, the Liberal's Great Hero. How many of them were guilty of any crime, other than their ancestry?

Before you start throwing out political charges in which to denigrate conservatives, you better make sure the charges don't include liberals as well.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 10:34AM

"By the way, Toddard, Democrats are not immune to unconstitutional interment practices."

I agree - but they've inhabited that moral low ground forever, sharing as they do the same totalitarian mindset as the scoundrels and criminals I named earlier. One expects better of Conservatives, and should hold them to higher standards as they should be better Americans.

Ray| 11.20.09 @ 10:45AM

Toiddard, Conservatives HAVE been using moral practices when dealing with the terrorists. It's far better to hold them and try them using military tribunals than simple shooting them on sight.

What else can we do? We can't try people captured overseas here in America. The Constitution doesn't apply to foreigners apprehended in in foreign lands. It only applies to American citizens in apprehended American territories. The Courts can not, by authority of the Constitution, hold these people accountable for anything they do outside the territories of the United States.

I thought you were smarter than that, Toddard. You should know that our laws and Constitutional protections do not, legally, extend outside our boarders. A military tribunal is the only legal way in which to determine the guilt or innocence of enemy combatants.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 10:58AM

"A military tribunal is the only legal way in which to determine the guilt or innocence of enemy combatants."

The Supreme Court disagrees, and in fact found the tribunals you reference unconstitutional.

Ray| 11.20.09 @ 11:07AM

Have you forgotten that the tribunals were created by an act of Congress just a few years ago in response to the Courts decision that the President doesn't have the authority to create those tribunals and that only Congress does, which is what the Supreme Court found unconstitutional and not the concept of the Tribunals themselves? It seems you have.

Ray| 11.20.09 @ 11:13AM

Toddard, the Supreme Court didn't find the tribunals unconstitutional, as you allege. They ruled that the detainees can APPEAL their convictions in federal court. The tribunals themselves are CONSTITUTIONAL! It was the appeals process the Court found flawed.

Amor de Cosmos| 11.20.09 @ 12:29PM

I think the best summary I have seen about these folks is that they are not combatants (in the uniformed soldier sense) but they are --in fact--the weapons in this war.

I believe that AG Holder is mistaken in proceeding as he has. Moreover, this does nothing to publicly exhibit the rule of law and American justice other than to show how prosecutorial discretion can be abused for political ends.

Those that don't think that this will be a giant mess and circus parade are mistaken.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 1:12PM

"Toddard, the Supreme Court didn't find the tribunals unconstitutional, as you allege. They ruled that the detainees can APPEAL their convictions in federal court"

Ray - I believe you're incorrect. Everything I have read demonstrates that the *commissions* were found unconstitutional as they violated UCMJ and Geneva.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 1:45PM

From the text of the Hamdan decision:

“The military commission at issue is not expressly authorized by any congressional Act. Quirin held that Congress had, through Article of War 15, sanctioned the use of military commissions to try offenders or offenses against the law of war. 317 U. S., at 28. UCMJ Art. 21, which is substantially identical to the old Art. 15, reads: “The jurisdiction [of] courts-martial shall not be construed as depriving military commissions . . . of concurrent jurisdiction in respect of offenders or offenses that by statute or by the law of war may be tried by such . . . commissions.” 10 U. S. C. §821. Contrary to the Government’s assertion, even Quirin did not view that authorization as a sweeping mandate for the President to invoke military commissions whenever he deems them necessary. Rather, Quirin recognized that Congress had simply preserved what power, under the Constitution and the common law of war, the President already had to convene military commissions—with the express condition that he and those under his command comply with the law of war”

“The military commission at issue lacks the power to proceed because its structure and procedures violate both the UCMJ and the four Geneva Conventions signed in 1949”

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/.....05-184.pdf

Dai Alanye| 11.20.09 @ 1:49PM

"…unconstitutional as they violated UCMJ and Geneva."

What nonsense is this? The Constitution isn't the Uniform Code of Military Justice nor is it any or all of the Geneva Conventions.

Further, we haven't agreed to all the Geneva Conventions—specifically those that extend to irregular combatants all the privileges afforded uniformed combatants.

I'm getting the impression that Toddard quotes whatever he comes across without any genuine understanding of the subject under discussion.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 2:44PM

"What nonsense is this? The Constitution isn't the Uniform Code of Military Justice nor is it any or all of the Geneva Conventions."

The Constitution declares Geneva to be "the Supreme Law of the Land" per Article 6. Ergo a trial that violates Geneva is unconstitutional.

More than that (and the argument decision is very long so please excuse the vagary of my summation) the gist is that for the commissions to be constitutional they must comply with the common laws of war, which in this case (and under the Constitution) are defined by Geneva and the UCMJ, as the District court argued:

"the President’s authority to establish military commissions extends only to offenders or offenses triable by such a commission under the law of war; that such law includes the Third Geneva Convention; that Hamdan is entitled to that Convention’s full protections until adjudged, under it, not to be a prisoner of war; and that, whether or not Hamdan is properly classified a prisoner of war, the commission convened to try him was established in violation of both the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), 10
U. S. C. §801 et seq., and Common Article 3 of the Third Geneva Convention because it had the power to convict based on evidence the accused would never see or hear."

"I'm getting the impression that Toddard quotes whatever he comes across without any genuine understanding of the subject under discussion."

Yeah. Right.

victor| 11.21.09 @ 1:15AM

That decision was decided by the five liberal justices that believed that international law should override American Jurisprudence.
Stevens, Breyer, Souter, Ginsberg and Kennedy
All senile and all leftists decided this case.
They gave an non-citizen the rights that only should belong to an American Citizen.
They will burn in Hell for Eternity.
This Obama will soon have more Latina Sotomayors thinking fuzzy thoughts on the bench.
Thanks for be to all who voted Obama and did not vote for McCain.

tailgunner| 11.20.09 @ 11:28AM

"Due to his seeking damages for his abduction, confinement and torture, the US - despite releasing him - refuses to exonerate him. "

Are you really this dumb?

You've GOT to know that release does NOT equal innocence.

Guilty men are *released* every single day around the world. The Libyan 'Lockerbie bomber' is one example that springs to mind.

"Isn't it comical, that "conservatives" now passionately embrace torture, gulags and kangaroo courts? "

You like to preach, don't you, from your morally enlightened throne?

Back it up.

I want you to call right here, for the immediate release of ALL Gitmo detainees, the immediate closure of the 'gulag' Gitmo, and the dismissal of ALL charges brought against ANY detainee before so-called 'kangaroo courts'.

Either their capture is lawful or it is NOT. If none was Mirandized they must ALL be released.

Either their detention is lawful or it is NOT. If Gitmo is a 'gulag' then it must be immediately CLOSED. Disposition of the detainees should not be a prerequisite.

Guilt or innocence should not be a factor if the conditions of their detention are 'inhuman'.

(You act like they're ALL 'innocent' anyway.)

Either their indictments and trials are lawful or they are NOT. Again, if none was Mirandized the trials won't make it past the discovery stages.

Obama's personal choice, through his puppet Holder, of who gets a civilian trial and who gets the 'kangaroo court' is a blatant violation of 'equal protection under the law' and again constitutes the civilian equivalent of 'unlawful command influence'.

And after you do all this, pal, then you can decide what to do with hundreds or the most dangerous men in the world.

Pretty high flying words but no backbone or courage.

Make up your mind, pal, or STFU.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 12:59PM

“You've GOT to know that release does NOT equal innocence.”

Uh

“The government of Canada ordered a commission of inquiry which concluded that he was tortured.[7] The commission of inquiry publicly cleared Arar of any links to terrorism. The government of Canada later settled out of court with Arar and awarded him a C$10.5 million settlement.”

“You like to preach, don't you, from your morally enlightened throne?”

Yes, I do. I find it rewarding bringing light to those in the darkness. It may seem unpleasant to you, what with having to squint etc, but believe me you will thank me some day.

“I want you to call right here, for the immediate release of ALL Gitmo detainees, the immediate closure of the 'gulag' Gitmo, and the dismissal of ALL charges brought against ANY detainee before so-called 'kangaroo courts'”

No.

“Either their capture is lawful or it is NOT. If none was Mirandized they must ALL be released.”

No they musn’t.

“Either their detention is lawful or it is NOT. If Gitmo is a 'gulag' then it must be immediately CLOSED. Disposition of the detainees should not be a prerequisite.”

Indeed – it must be closed.

“Guilt or innocence should not be a factor if the conditions of their detention are 'inhuman'.”

Agreed – our gulags must be closed.

“(You act like they're ALL 'innocent' anyway.)”

And you act as though they’re all terrorists, which we know for a fact is not the case.

“Either their indictments and trials are lawful or they are NOT. Again, if none was Mirandized the trials won't make it past the discovery stages”

That’s not true, actually. It is unclear what role, if any, Miranda will play.

“Obama's personal choice, through his puppet Holder, of who gets a civilian trial and who gets the 'kangaroo court' is a blatant violation of 'equal protection under the law' and again constitutes the civilian equivalent of 'unlawful command influence'.”

Well, here’s something we agree on, anyway. Obama is literally saying: civilian trials for those we know we can convict. Military commissions for those we cannot convict in civilian trials. Trial-free “preventive” detention for those we cannot convict in commissions. I mean he is proposing – openly! – show trials, where the verdict is known beforehand! He has already done enough to be impeached, imo.

“And after you do all this, pal”

We’re pals! Awesome.

“Pretty high flying words but no backbone or courage.”

I don’t know. Is the internet really a place conducive to judging a man’s courage?

“Make up your mind, pal”

Haha. You talk like Hannibal Smith. Are you chomping a cigar, pal? Do you love it when a plan comes together?

Lemme axe you somefin, as our inner-city residents say: What about military courts-martial under the USCMJ? And what about innocent people captured far from any battlefield – they should not have a chance to defend themselves in open trial? They should be subject only to rough military justice?

I await your answer,

Sincerely, your pal

S.L. Toddard, Esq

tailgunner| 11.20.09 @ 4:25PM

Toddard lies by omission.

There is much more information in that Wikipedia article on Arar, which Mr S. L. Toddard, Esq conveniently failed to include, that demonstrates that Canada had legitimate reason to be concerned over his potential ties to terror. I have included it elsewhere in this thread.

Lying by omission is still lying.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 6:28PM

I didn't think it necessary to post that they a REASON to be suspicious of him. Is that not automatically implied? I only posted the beginning of the introductory summary and the link so everyone interested could read the whole thing. I assumed you did. You're just reading about this now? And I didn't post THAT portion because it's obviously implied. OF COURSE that had a reason for abducting him - they don't just do it at random.

My point was that we have abducted - and will abduct - innocent people and hold them incommunicado with no recourse for defense, often under brutal circumstances. Do you think this guy's story is unique?

Doorgunner| 11.20.09 @ 12:17PM

What a load of dung. "The Syrian government reports it knows of no links of Arar to terrorism."
My God, that's hilarious. And you cite Wiki. Priceless. And actually reading the Wiki entry paints a rather less sympathetic portrait of Arar, surprisingly enough.

And you 'forgot' to mention that Canada requested the detention. And he had been identified as having travelled to Kabul.

How very low you'll stoop, traitor.

And a further note on Syria: the Syrian government talks out of both sides of the mouth- they have been supporting and sponsoring 'insurgents' and Syrian national fighters in Iraq since the first days of the war, and I don't have to read Wiki to know that, I personally know people who('ve) handle(d) the captured.

Margie| 11.20.09 @ 12:28PM

Wikipedia=Toddard's brain.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 1:03PM

I don't think you and I will ever be pals, Doorgunner. I'm not a bad guy - ask your brother, Tail. We're pals.

Doorgunner| 11.20.09 @ 2:13PM

That's okay; like the President, I've been known to drink with those I loathe.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 2:30PM

Let's do it! Pal!

Dixie Pixie| 11.20.09 @ 1:30PM

Congratulation's SL
You were dead on accurate and only missed the British subjects that were freed from Guantanamo by British courts. You were theme relevant, accurate, and on target. I was impressed.

The problem is caused by the National Security Act of 1947 which made the CIA responsible only to the President. In short the Operations Directorate of the CIA has been the Presidents private army since the Truman Administration. The Act needs to be amended to make the CIA responsible to the american people not the President.

Dixie Pixie| 11.20.09 @ 7:29PM

Sorry Everybody.
My post was supposed to be tied to SL Toddard's [ Maher Arar] post.
I don't know why it dropped down so far.
You have my humble apologies as my post does not make any sense in the current location.

tailgunner| 11.20.09 @ 4:11PM

You have deliberately and dishonestly omitted relevant material information in the case of Maher Arar.

This information, if included, would have undermined your obvious efforts to paint this man as an innocent who was horribly mistreated by a rogue nation unconcerned by truth or facts.

You are the one unconcerned with truth or facts.

There was ample reason to detain and investigate Arar as a potential terrorist associate.

Arar listed as his 'emergency contact' one Abdullah Almaiki, who in turn was associated, since 1998 with one Ahmed Said Khadr, an alleged 'senior associate of Osama bin Laden.

The source for this is Canadian Intelligence.

Arar was, mistakenly as it turned out, identified as being at a safehouse run by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. He was also identified by another terror suspect as a 'possible militant'.

Arar was detained by US Immigration following information supplied by the Canadian Mounted Police.

Canada apparently denied Arar's request to reenter that country. This left the US with no option but to deport Arar to Syria, his HOME COUNTRY.

The US' ONLY role in the Arar affair was in detaining him, and later deporting him, based on Canada's concern that he might be a terror associate.

And now the reader sees a whole different side of Maher Arar. Doesn't look like a poor innocent guy snatched off the street to me.

And the US ISN'T the bad guy in this case, as you claim. You conveniently omit the fact that Canadian authorities were the ORIGINAL SOURCE of the intelligence which fingered Arar.

Accepting anything Syria, probably the second largest state supporter of terrorism, says as credible is simply stupid.

And Canada is painted as an 'enlightened' nation which cleared, apologized and paid off Arar. Remember they are the ones who *started* this whole thing.

Wikipedia articles on Arar and other terror 'persons of interest' read like al-Jazeera puff pieces, where every terror suspect was just 'minding his own business' when Dick Cheney and Halliburton snatched them from the embraces of their wives and children in midnight raids.

I'm no longer going to waste my time replying to intellectually dishonest hacks like you.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 6:19PM

"This left the US with no option but to deport Arar to Syria, his HOME COUNTRY."

Is this what you honestly think?

old white guy| 11.21.09 @ 11:23AM

have you been reading the toronto star. mahar had no evidence of torture and the fools in canada gave him 10 millions bucks. this joker was setting up an action but was caught before he could do any damage too bloody bad there are so many people ready to sacrifice others lives just to be p.c.

Sue| 11.22.09 @ 5:32PM

Dear Mr. Toddard: It has nothing to do with "conservatives" and the supporters of the GOP. It has to do with a religion where men torment and murder the weak and the innocents because a "religious" document tells them they can.

You would be treated the same as all the rest of us "conservatives" if they came for you. Don't try to defend the "indefensible." They are after the complete destruction of Western civilization and they will do it with our help and our money and by using our "freedoms" against. us.

They are a clever sort and the only thing they will understand is a defense of "living" not "dying." Which means, we kill them first.

Jim| 11.24.09 @ 7:47PM

I agree with you. America should always strive for the moral high ground. We proudly proclaim that we are better than everyone else and that our ways are best. We can't have it both ways.

New topic: To those of you critical of (Mr.?) Stoddard, get real! America deserves citizens who do question (and by extension hold accountable) authority. Our leaders won't make the best decisions if we blindly follow them without demanding accountability! Those of you who won't think EVERY topic through for yourselves aren't as patriotic as you think you are.

TheBishop| 11.20.09 @ 9:21AM

The Prosecutor-in-Chief has guaranteed that KSM will prevail on an appeal of a guilty verdict. Whether by design or moronic incompetence, this decision is an outrageous betrayal of the American trust for internal safety.

Anthony| 11.20.09 @ 9:48AM

Well, what the hell did we expect from a know-nothing Constitutional Law lecturer, cum radical leftist professor, from an elite institution like the University of Chicago? Let's see a show of hands from all you high priced lawyers who were taught Constitutional Law by Obama. How about a class action lawsuit for a refund of tuition? I bet Duke Law school wanted Obama real bad.
To be fair, the U of C has some serious conservative bona fides, but Obama, with his permanent Easy-Pass given to him by fawning leftists, was given this plum assignment because he looked soooo good. Score a big one for academic diversity. I suspect Obama had not read the Constitution prior to his first lecture. Maybe he still hasn't.
Oh well, so he and his co-equal Constitutional Law illiterate, Eric (Marc Rich) Holder sacrificed decades of well reasoned legal precedent for military tribunals, what't the big deal?
As a result, the world has a much higher opinion of America, don't you know, can't you feel it? You know al Qaeda does, right?
I guess there's only ONE solution now for our brave military when confronted with the enemy without their Miranda warning card. "You have the right to remain.....oops sorry, accidental discharge, my bad".

TexasEngineer| 11.20.09 @ 10:02AM

As the sherriff, played by Brian Denehy, in Silverado said: "...We're gonna give you a fair trial followed by a first class hanging."

Let the Military Tribunals have the b*st*rds. If it was good enough for Goering and the rest of the Nazis, it is just fine for KSM and his brethren.

cary gravelene| 11.20.09 @ 10:06AM

Hooray for Appleby. I always though Obama's agenda was reverse slavery . How better to get it than to pilfer the pockets of hard working Americans while they were watching this self proclaimed "we are what we've been waiting for." He really thinks he is a messiah....Woe to those who blindedly voted for him. Obama and they will reap the wind.

Ken (Old Texican)| 11.20.09 @ 10:10AM

Mr. Blackwell,
Thank you. I was wondering if anyone else was as amazed as I was when I saw that interview live.
Rather than thinking of Alice though, I immediately thought of the supposed words the "hanging judge" from Indian Territory used often.
"Yeah, wee'l give him a fair trial and hang him in the mornin'."
Then I began having very dark thoughts about the constellation of motives behind the whole charade.
Wow!

Dixie Pixie| 11.20.09 @ 1:44PM

To: Ken
The end point of the Obama regime to to convert the current political system to a semitic / pharaonic God-King format enforced by a all-powerful top-down bureaucracy.

Tim| 11.20.09 @ 10:12AM

The President seems to be winking at us: I'm not George Bush, I'm making a big show of liberal justice ,but don't worry, the fix is in.
Chicago style.

Rmm| 11.20.09 @ 10:15AM

Eric the Great has spoken. He has predetermined that KSM and his buds are guilty, but they will get a fair trial notwithstanding. This comes from the top lawyer in the land. Any decent defense attorney would pick this apart and ask for mistrial.
I say against the wall mofo would be much more appropriate in this case.

Tim| 11.20.09 @ 10:37AM

I'm suspecting that Holder can use his connections to lean on those defense attorneys: DON'T EMBARASS THE PRESIDENT!

1FreeMan| 11.20.09 @ 10:26AM

Toddard, you lie. Have you been to the war zone?
I have! I can tell you that people are not picked up and sent to prison on a whim. You are a conspiracy-nut gone wrong. Those terrorists set free were guilty as he11 but had administrative loopholes some liberal jack-A$$ lawyer used to secure their freedom. They usually show up in a morgue in Afghanistan having tried again to blow up a FOB (Forward Operations Base) filled with patriots (not you, of course). What poor innocent villager do you purport to defend? Oh, the ones Opra told you about? Guess what? Every convicted murderer on death row in federal prison will tell you he/she is innocent. Are you that naive?

Please stop commenting on a war you know nothing about. You have bought into the liberal media's lies and you "just know" baby killers are out there. You couldn't be more wrong.
Toddard, if you don't stop the name calling I will ask AMS to ban you from the site. Remember Davie Matthews? Play nice and have a polite (and if at ALL possible for you, a truthful) discourse… or hit the bricks!

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 2:45PM

Honestly - it would be impossible for me to care less about what you think.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 2:49PM

And the administrators here are free to read my posts and determine for themselves who initiates the nasty comments, and whether I engage in even a *fraction* of the "name calling" my opponents indulge in.

1Freeman| 11.20.09 @ 2:58PM

About time you replied.

Of course you don't care. The truth drastically interferes with your mental construct of the world around you. Dillusionals usually resort to the blathering name-calling you use when confronted withe the truth.

AGAIN: have you been to war in defense of the country? No? How about you stop acting like an expert in a field you can't possibly fathom. (did I use too many big words for you?) Sorry...

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 3:15PM

I don't recall posting anything about military tactics. Could you please cite the post to which you refer?

Also, where did you serve, if you don't mind my asking?

1Freeman| 11.21.09 @ 2:00AM

The Combined Security Transition Command, Kabul. I didn't say you were speaking about tactics, idiot. You were speaking to the apprehension and detainment of terrorists by the military. You have since spoken to their treatment and the release of those captured. Again, you know nothing about this topic but are looking more and more like a paid shill trying to discredit freedom for your unnatural love of liberalism.

Margie| 11.21.09 @ 11:47AM

Freedom isn't free! God bless you and thank you for your service to our country. I appreciate you and what you do so much, as I'm sure most do, here. I truly hope you continue posting, as you also serve excellently in your ability to "thrust them through" with your words!
Toddard calls himself a "true conservative" also a "Paleo-conservative". He is a "non-interventionist"~~ which he's told us many a time, so he believes America is an "AGRESSOR" and doesn't believe we should be fighting outside of the U.S. He also doesn't think we ought to be helping Israel, whom he despises. In truth, he absolutely despises real conservatives and loves Ron Paul, who is also a "non-interventionist." It is also the Libertarian philosophy. Ron Paul, who actually voted against a bill which only stated that as a country we agree that Israel ought to be allowed to defend herself!

S.L. Toddard| 11.22.09 @ 1:52PM

"You were speaking to the apprehension and detainment of terrorists by the military. You have since spoken to their treatment and the release of those captured."

Yes I did. I assume you agree with everything I've said, since you have elected to refute exactly none of it.

Melvin| 11.20.09 @ 3:04PM

Oh please, leave the victimization at home Toddy, no thin skins here. Besides your too late to go on Oprah anyway she moving to California.
Anyway give me your address and I'll send you a box of hankies maybe two.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 3:16PM

"Oh please, leave the victimization at home Toddy, no thin skins here."

Is that a joke? 1Freeman threatened to tattle on me for "name calling". Please do try and keep up.

tailgunner| 11.20.09 @ 4:29PM

You don't *need* to use four-letter words to insult our INTELLIGENCE.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 6:17PM

Tailgunner - you dislike me, I disagree with you about everything, but I think you are honest. If you take a minute and go back and look at the posts, and you *honestly* think it was *me* who started the insulting amongst the commenters then I will happily apologize.

dasboot| 11.20.09 @ 11:03AM

If I were Bush, I would have ordered the immediate 'liquidation' of Gitmo and its detainees as my last act in office.

stephanie| 11.21.09 @ 11:22AM

But then we wouldn't be having this lively debate with the terrorist loving, America hating Toddard!

tailgunner| 11.20.09 @ 11:07AM

The military justice system calls this 'Unlawful Command Influence'.

And is IS grounds for dismissal of charges.

Between Obama's 'admission' of torture, his ex post facto requirements for Miranda warnings and civilian rules of evidence, it's possible, even probable, that KSM and every other terror suspect tried in civilian court (and many in military commissions) will have their cases dismissed 'with prejudice'.

('With prejudice' means the cases cannot be reopened.)

No judge, whatever their political views or alliances will be able to prevent these releases...and many wouldn't even object to it.

victor| 11.21.09 @ 1:42AM

Why do you think the Current Occupant decided to send them to the Southern District of New York?
It's filled with liberal judges appointed by BJ Clinton that sympathise with miscreants, malcontents, malefactors and muslims.
They will do the master's bidding and throw these cases out on technicalities such as Khalid was not Mirandized.
Besides the possibility of another 9/11 excites some people.
Remember, we need to pay for the sins of GW.

JBobs| 11.20.09 @ 1:07PM

Of course O and his crowd are all wrong this. But the unfortunate truth is that all of the Gitmo, KSM trial and Afghan war issues would be moot had W moved with proper dispatch in the conduct of these affairs.

Grzmlyk| 11.20.09 @ 1:59PM

You're wasting your breath, 1Freeman. Toddard worships at the altar of liberal jackass lawywers.

He doesn't give a damn how many Americans die, he has no respect for the truth and no use for the realities of life.

All he cares about flattering his own ego with an infinity of reductive, nihilisitc abstractions that bear no resemblance whatsoever to the physical world. His is a theoretical kingdom of one.

Which is why he is a liberal.

Margie| 11.20.09 @ 2:49PM

I do love you for saying that, Grz.

1FreeMan| 11.20.09 @ 2:52PM

Grzmlyk,

I agree. As of 2:00pm Toddard has replied to about 15 posts above (after I wrote to him) but failed to reply to me. Of course, he really has nothing to offer in the light of my comments. Coward and blow-hard angrily tapping on his keyboard.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 3:21PM

Yes that's it - you made so many substantive, fact-based, logically impregnable arguments that I just couldn't respond. I was utterly at a loss, bested by your brilliance.

1FreeMan: 1
SLT: 0

You win.

1Freeman| 11.21.09 @ 2:04AM

Bested by clear thought and the fact that I have been there and lived it and you have no idea beyond the talking points you are delivered. You, a cowardly lie spewing paid shill, have done nothing beyond the basement door of your mothers house. You attack this forum daily and post hourly. Who are you kidding? No one has that time unless that is all they do. It's a paycheck, I guess.

my prayer| 11.23.09 @ 10:48AM

grzmlyk.
thanks. short and to the point.

Ken (Old Texican)| 11.20.09 @ 2:03PM

Toddard = "Crank". heh!

victor| 11.21.09 @ 1:46AM

Actually, Toddard could be: Keith Toddardmann
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g-HS-9srWA
Explains his hatred for Sarah and GW.

Margie| 11.20.09 @ 2:12PM

A ratchety crank, at that.
Ratchet: "a mechanism that consists of a bar or wheel having inclined teeth into which a pawl drops so that motion can be imparted to the wheel or bar, governed, or prevented and that is used in a hand tool (as a wrench or screwdriver) to allow effective motion in one direction only."

1FreeMan| 11.20.09 @ 2:54PM

Margie,

You crack me up! I like you.

Margie| 11.20.09 @ 2:57PM

Feeling's mutual~~!

Grzmlyk| 11.20.09 @ 2:57PM

Hi Margie:

What kills me is the guy is EXACTLY what he accuses us all of being - a blindered ideologue who deals in nothing but abstractions and stereotypes. But he's worse because, as with every liberal, it's always only about HIM.

Anyway, I never got back to that other thread the other day about LibertyorDeath (LoD) - it sounded like you had a history with him as a troll. I really couldn't tell from his postings - could have gone either way.

But then a lot of the trolls who post here (like Toddard) very loudly bray about how they're really the TRUE conservatives. Again, in Toddard's case, he can call himself an end table as far as I'm concerned.

In fact, that would more accurately describe his value to the world.

Then again, even end tables are more useful because at least you can put stuff on them.

Margie| 11.20.09 @ 3:12PM

Grz,
I've read that that's a typical Saul Alinsky tactic~~ to accuse others of the exact thing that they are actually doing. I've had mucho experience with that.
It all has to do with the inability to see yourself for what you really are. In the case of Liberals, it's all about a guilt complex. They think you have to feel sorry for people and cater to them, rather than empowering them with the truth and holding them accountable. It's why Liberalism is a mental disorder.
As to LOD~~ I said troll because I knew he/she was into smearing Sarah. It was such a typical "I really like her, BUT she screwed the oil Co.'s, etc." I should have just told him/her "silly" and then posted that link I did showing the truth about what Sarah did concerning that issue, which I did, later. I reacted hastily, but I knew it was a smear. Sorry for that.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 6:33PM

"What kills me is the guy is EXACTLY what...etc"

Thinking about me again, Grzmlyk? We're not even in a discussion, and yet you can't stop thinking and talking to me.

Grzmlyk| 11.20.09 @ 3:03PM

1Freeman, Toddard's MO is to immerse himself in liberal dogma culled from Web sites - he steeps himself in the bullshit thoroughly and then takes potshots from behind his presumed elevated plane of thinking.

However, he laps up his "facts" at the same trough every liberal laps up their "facts" and when you exploit a gap in his supposedly iron-clad logic, or do an end-around, you're in his wheelhouse in no time.

His circuits fry.

But the bottom line is that he is a perfect example of the arrogant trash this country has produced who has never lifted a finger to actually do anything productive or useful.

I would love to sentence the guy to live in the world he would prescribe for us.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 3:12PM

"However, he laps up his "facts" at the same trough every liberal laps up their "facts" and when you exploit a gap in his supposedly iron-clad logic, or do an end-around, you're in his wheelhouse in no time"

Haha. How would *you* know?

Honestly, you spend far too much time thinking about me.

victor| 11.21.09 @ 1:51AM

Actually, he culls his talking points from the fringy websites that he hangs out in.
Rockwell, Raimondo, Rothbard,
But he really is a monarchist, witness his derision of those who emulate the Founders and their principles.
He would have gladly turned us in to the King's Men.
But he's really a fan of Lindbergh.

S.L. Toddard| 11.22.09 @ 1:50PM

Of course I am a fan of the great Charles Lindbergh. The man is a bona fide American hero.

stephanie| 11.21.09 @ 11:31AM

Yeah, what in the heck to lawyers produce? Like realestate agents, not much.
Some of us use not only our heads, but our hands to "make something".
Who will defend these terroists? Will they be "court appointed" slim ball attorneys? From where will they be? Just curious.

melvin| 11.20.09 @ 3:26PM

Come on, your here so much your like family now.

Grzmlyk| 11.20.09 @ 3:44PM

If he's family, then somebody's wife had an affair with a donkey.

:-)

victor| 11.21.09 @ 1:54AM

Actually, being that he's a darwinist, he's a monkey's uncle. You know, like Danny Thomas had Uncle Tonoose, someone at Franklin Park Zoo has an Uncle Toddy.

Grzmlyk| 11.20.09 @ 3:28PM

I don't have to think about you. You're a fungible cog.

You spend far too much time pretending you're not.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 6:36PM

"I don't have to think about you"

Hahaha. How many posts just on this page have you written about me? If you have some time please count them and let me know.

Grzmlyk| 11.20.09 @ 3:41PM

Margie, I wrote up a response to you, but I have trouble posting on this site - it's a cookie problem and sometimes my comments disappear.

Anyway, I agree it's a mental illness, but I think narcissism is at the root.

Also, no prob on LoD - I don't know if he was a troll or not, but I know how many trolls show up on this site pretending to be conservatives.

And the hatred the libs have thrown at Palin - it's unbelieveable. I thought the peak of hate was Bush Derangement Syndrome. I was wrong.

Trash like Toddard and his ilk (and they really are like many bodies with one infected mind) don't care how many Americans die or how much hell this country slides into as long as they can pat themselves on the back and say, "what a good boy am I!" It's ultimately about nothing more, I think, than vanity. White guilt is a form of vanity - the irony it is those people who are the bigots!

Margie| 11.20.09 @ 4:02PM

Not only is the irony that they are the bigots (while accusing us of this), but here's the bigger picture:
These haters usually also call themselves Christians. Both Toddard and LibRead, and the myriads of others.
If they are Christians, why do they so despise their brethren? Why do they so despise Sarah Palin? It's because they are fake, phony frauds. Sarah is an obvious example of a true conservative, and she happens to be a Christian. This enrages the phonies! Why would a true Christian have so much vitriol for her? Because she only serves to reveal their phoniness and they can't bear it!
You can always tell a phony as soon as they start telling you you are too "simplistic," stupid, ignorant, etc.
The truth is very simple. That's why the Left despises it. They create all kinds of psycho-babble to try and avoid it and make it look too complicated for the "undesirables" to be able to grasp.
While claiming to be on the side of the Truth, they stomp all over and seek to destroy it, and and anyone who loves it!

Grzmlyk| 11.20.09 @ 4:57PM

Margie, you are right on the money.

Libs live to change reality. And when they're plans inevitably fail, it's reality that must have screwed up, because god forbid THEY were wrong.

As Newsweek's Evan Thomas said after those documents supposedly showing that Bush didn't fulfill his National Guard obligations were proven to be forgeries, "the facts may have been wrong, but the narrative was correct."

Same thing with the Duke LaCrosse players. Sure, the whore lied and no sexual assualt took place, but the media felt it SHOULD HAVE, because that would reaffirm their own narrative - that privileged white college athletes always victimize exostic dancers out of a sense of racism. the media were ecstatic when they heard that a brutal gang rape occurred - and when it turned out not to have, they were visibly disappointed.

Same thing with troll Bob, who predicted that economic recovery would be in full swing by january 2010, and that the housing market would be fully recovered. When he turns out be be 180 degrees wrong, do you think he'll admit it? Nope. He won't admit that his faith in Bernanke was misplaced. Instead, I guarantee he'll blame exigent circumstances that he couldn't have known when he embraced Obamanomics.

Liberalism, above everything else, a through-and-through LIE.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 6:32PM

"like Toddard and his ilk"

Thinking about me again, Grzmlyk?

victor| 11.21.09 @ 1:56AM

Actually PalinPhobes have PMS:
Palin Malignment Syndrome.

Margie| 11.21.09 @ 12:51PM

~(Credit to Michelle Malkin)~ :^)

Marc Jeric| 11.20.09 @ 3:47PM

AG Holder, the pardoner of those murderous Puerto Rican terrorists and the Castro's lawyer in the Elian Gonzalez case, has decided to try those jihadi terrorists in a civil court to be judged by "an impartial jury of their peers". "Impartial" - in New York? "Of their peers" - where shall Holder find them - in Afghanistan?Well, Abu Hussein from Kenya, our Community Organizer-in-Chief, has already sentenced them to death. But the ACLU, the National Lawyers Guild, and other organs of the Communist Party USA have other outcomes in mind - impeachment of Bush and Cheney, and dismantling of the CIA.

Grzmlyk| 11.20.09 @ 3:53PM

The whole thing is a joke - this is a show trial, and the Bush administration is the defendant; they don't give a damn if the terrorists walk - in fact, my guess is they want KSM to walk.

After all, as someone here pointed out, not only was he not miranized, but Obama's comment (I think it was to CBS) would prejudice any jury, as would Holder's comments about holding KSM even if he's let off. Then why have the trial?

Hmm. Trying to figure that one out. Oh yeah. NAIL BUSH.

Melvin| 11.20.09 @ 3:57PM

It is not Bush who is going to be on trial, it will this Country, and Western Civilization.

Grzmlyk| 11.20.09 @ 4:03PM

Ultimately, Melvin, I agree; but the first stop on the One-World-Government Express is to try Bush and Cheney in the Hague.

This trial is a stepping stone.

For libs, it will show the world what barbarians Bush and Cheney were for - gasp - trying to protect America from rabid animals.

Margie| 11.20.09 @ 4:08PM

Right. Pres. Bush and Vice Pres. Chaney called it "The War on Terror", after all!

Grzmlyk| 11.20.09 @ 4:15PM

Know what would make Toddard's day? If Bush and Cheney were lined up in front of a firing squad, KSM and Bin Laden not only walked but got their own cable channel and lived like kings on the taxpayer dime, and America FINALLY gets what it REALLY deserves in the form of a few million innocent civilians dead (but not Toddard and his ilk, of course; they're the superior ones!).

But hey, that's what you get for calling a terrorist a terrorist and not a hapless, helpless victim of white conservative American male oppression.

Margie| 11.20.09 @ 4:30PM

We also would be included in that line-up, I am sure.
But afterward, unless the executioners themselves converted to Islam, their heads would be summarily lopped off.
Just another little tidbit of Truth.

Grzmlyk| 11.20.09 @ 4:41PM

I'm sure Toddard would be happy to wield the axe - and even convert to Islam to show how open-minded and tolerant he is.

However, when he finds out these thugs do not exist solely to inflate his ego - when he learns that these animals aren't fucking around, and that the REAL evil in this world is not the patty-cake bullshit he spends all of his time wringing his hands over - he will be in for a rude awakening.

S.L. Toddard| 11.20.09 @ 6:30PM

Thinking about me again, Grzmlyk?

Margie| 11.20.09 @ 4:11PM

I also heard someone note on the radio that the non-Mirandizing will set a new president. That being that when we are arrested for being "terrorists" (according to the new Homeland Security def.), we will not have to have our rights read to us.

Grzmlyk| 11.20.09 @ 4:33PM

Margie, I misread your post at first. I was going to say that the reading of Miranda rights is part of the elaborate kabuki dance law enforcement must engage in so that when they trip over one of these obstacles even slightly in the act of trying to apprehend a criminal, another guilty person can go free.

But I see that this will only apply to us citizens who don't like redistribution of wealth, shrink from being serfs of the state and do not want to bow before our ruling class.

So you are right. If Obama has its way, he'll be the new Robespierre (that is, if he knew anything about history, which of course he does not), his second and third terms (yes, they'd love to repeal the 22nd amendment - can't be a dictator with term limits!) will look like the Reign of Terror and Heads Will Roll - without the benefit of being Mirandized.

Grzmlyk| 11.20.09 @ 3:54PM

I meant Mirandized, of course.

Tim| 11.20.09 @ 4:08PM

Five bucks says that as soon as the terrorists hit mainland jail they start bitching about the food, the weather and that big guy across the way who stares at them.

Grzmlyk| 11.20.09 @ 4:36PM

And ten bucks says that whatever they want, they will get. Don't want terrorists being uncomfortable or unable to proselytize whenever they want; that would be CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT.

Rmm| 11.20.09 @ 5:01PM

SLT,
Wouldn't want to feed into your enlarged ego, but I have to admit you bring comedic relief to this back and forth. Humor me some more.

Tex Expatriate| 11.20.09 @ 6:08PM

All so-called Liberals talk like they are at Carroll's tea party, going to it, or coming from it. It don't take a sear to figure out that Obama (and the AG) want the U.S. to lose this trial.

Ken Roberts| 11.20.09 @ 6:40PM

No matter what we do not want to give rights to people we do not even recognize as citizens it leads to death of the soldiers who fight on our behalf . I agree with a previous post here and that is our system is not perfect and never will be but it is the best that any one has ever had. we will have innocent people in jail and hopeful we can stop the execution of people not guilty . This is not a case of violating civil rights of an American citizen it is and should be tried in the military. What an asinine statement of Holder and Obama to shout to the world we have already found him guilty as charged, with out so much as a call to order in the court. I think most people find KSM guilty, he has plead guilty and he will have that thrown out by his lawyer . Can you imagine the turmoil caused by an innocent verdict? We live in dangerous times and thinking like the administration has will lead to criminals being set free to kill innocent people, so which innocent person does Toddard want to save .

Richard Baker| 11.20.09 @ 8:18PM

What's next from the Messiah? His transfiguration? What a buffoon. For his supporters from last year, How's that Hope and Change working out for ya?

School boy| 11.20.09 @ 10:24PM

Why should Gitmo be closed I don't get it.

Force Factor| 11.21.09 @ 3:50AM

I don't know what he'll get done. The dem have owned the congress for awhile and haven't got anything too radical done. I will be impressed (but maybe not like) any politician who takes care of our number one issue (well aside from abortion) and that is our national debt and deficit spending. I'll vote for McCain. Obama lacks character.
Force Factorx

Pete| 11.21.09 @ 3:37PM

My take on the motives of the Anointed One and his legal henchman is to point to the presumed guilty verdict and death sentence handed down in this kangaroo trial would be to point to the outcome and say, "See, I told you so, see how well this works in civilian courts?" paving the way to continue the practice of foreign combatants getting their day in civilian courts on U.S. soil with all the rights and benefits afforded a U.S. citizen. I would like to hear others' take on this.

Oliver| 11.21.09 @ 7:27PM

Mr Toddard has accomplished the goal of all liberal trolls on a conservative blog- he has hijacked the conversation from the issue at hand and onto a subject of his own choosing.

The article we are all commenting about discusses the Kangaroo Court that has been set up by President Obama in a New York City civilian court, not in some hypothetical military tribunal. The POTUS has declared that the defendants are guilty and will be convicted.... now let's give 'em a fair trial and hang 'em.

Does anyone anywhere believe that, especially following such pronouncements by the president and his staff, that KSM (or anyone else,for that matter) can receive a fair trial? Does anyone else remember the the media storm following the “Manson Guilty” declaration by Nixon? The Manson family nearly got a mistrial behind Nixon's gaffe- and they weren't even represented by counsel.

Does anyone really believe that world opinion will find this civilian railroading of the defendants so much fairer than a trial by a military tribunal? Of course not.

The comments of the President and his staff have sabotaged the government's case.

Oliver| 11.21.09 @ 7:38PM

By the way; the UCMJ does not apply ton anyone EXCEPT US Armed Forces- any reference to the Uniform Code of Military Justice in reference to any trial of any enemy combatant/conspirator is not germane.

Ken| 11.21.09 @ 9:36PM

Mr. Toddard, you asked about innocent civilians, snatched up......? But then you say that they had to be released. Doesn't that prove that the current system works? The innocent are released? There is a problem here with conflicted rules of engagement. If the courts ordered the detainees to be afforded the protections of the Geneva accords, wouldn't that define the detainees as POWs? POWs are not entitled to civilian trial. POWs that are war criminals, i.e., that attack civilians, have no protection under the Geneva Accords. In past practice, they were brought before a military tribunel, or summarily executed on the battlefield. If the detainees are not war criminals, but rather common criminals, shouldn't we be trying to capture them alive, instead of sending our military to kill them? Members of the current administration, specifically Eric Holder, did everything that could be done to delay and hinder the Bush administrations efforts to try the detainees. Now, the current administration is less interested in justice, as evidenced by Obama's prejudgement of guilt, than it is on politicizing the war and putting the Bush administration on trial.

Oliver| 11.21.09 @ 10:11PM

Your last line is my ptimary concern on this issue.

Has the administration deliberately compromised the jury trial (after ruling out the tribunal) jn oyger to justify an appeal to an international court/tribunal?

Such an international inquiry would be an opportunity to put the CIA. waterboarding. the Bush administration. etc on trial without direct administration involvement.

Paranoid?...

1FreeMan| 11.22.09 @ 1:43PM

Ken,
Toddard won't write or respond on the weekend. He is only paid to write and attack conservitive blogs on Monday through Friday.

S.L. Toddard| 11.23.09 @ 9:07AM

"But then you say that they had to be released. Doesn't that prove that the current system works? The innocent are released?"

A system that abducts innocent people from the street or their home etc nowhere near any battlefield and secrets them away to be held incommunicado with no recourse to defend themselves, no contact with their family, and holds them for YEARS (often under brutal circumstances, or in solitary confinement) quite obviously does NOT "work".

S.L. Toddard| 11.23.09 @ 9:10AM

"Now, the current administration is less interested in justice, as evidenced by Obama's prejudgement of guilt, than it is on politicizing the war and putting the Bush administration on trial."

That is absolutely false. If Obama's aim were to hold the Bush admin accountable to the law then I would be cheering them on. It is not. The Obama admin has a vested interest in shielding the Bush administration from the law, as the Democrats are no less guilty than the Bush admin was of lawbreaking. The Democrats went along with all of it, and any effort to bring justice to the Bush admin would snare the Dem leadership as well. Far from holding the Bush admin accountable, Obama is actually shielding them from accountability and in the process Obama has become an accessory after the fact and should be impeached as such.

tailgunner| 11.23.09 @ 9:14PM

Ignorant fool.

Obama and Holder have *wanted* to investigate the Bush Administration for phony 'war crimes' since Day One.

This is how Obama/Holder is going to achieve that goal with the maximum of deniability.

They're going to outsource the investigation and prosecution of George W Bush to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

KSM and his attorneys, with the knowledge and cooperation of the Obama Administration, are going to put the entire Bush Administration and the entire GWOT on trial.

KSM's attorneys are going to subpoena every single member of the Bush Administration, *especially* Bush and Cheney, every member of the CIA, and every US soldier or marine who ever laid their hands on these stinking pieces of human debris.

And Holder, in an effort 'to be fair', will move heaven and earth to force *everyone* to testify.

If anyone is not 'available' to testify then Holder will call into question KSM's 'ability' to get a 'fair trial'.

Every one will be placed under oath. The slightest discrepancy will be grounds for Holder to initiate perjury prosecutions.

And any desired intelligence, classified or otherwise, will be made available to KSM without a fight.

After all, they're all on the same team, you know.

KSM is doing Holder, Obama and the anti-American left's dirty work...with their BLESSING.

S.L. Toddard| 11.24.09 @ 3:26PM

"KSM and his attorneys, with the knowledge and cooperation of the Obama Administration, are going to put the entire Bush Administration and the entire GWOT on trial."

In my wildest dreams, perhaps - but not in real life. Your problem is that you are so profoundly invested - emotionally - in the Right vs Left narrative that you fail to notice that the far more significant conflict is between the people and the political/corporate elites. That's why no matter who is elected the same people benefit and the same people get screwed. The gov't continues expanding and growing more powerful while the people become less so. Obama has refused to release the torture photos, threatened the UK if they revealed evidence of US torture in court, refused to investigate Bush's war crimes, caved on FISA and adopted most of Bush's unAmerican, authoritarian measures. He simply cannot try Bush for Bush's crimes, as Obama is perpetrating the exact same crimes. That's what makes the anti-Obama screeching of Bush fanatics so patently ridiculous: he's embraced far more of Bush's policies than he's reversed, from extreme secrecy, nation-building, KGB-esque spying on American citizens etc to massive bailouts and gov't takeover of the private sector. Apart from superficial changes of style, the Obama presidency is far more a continuation of Bush's presidency than a repudiation of it.

And notice that, to rebut your arguments, I don't have to revert to childish ad hominem attacks ("ignorant fool" indeed).

tailgunner| 11.24.09 @ 3:37PM

You'll eat those words.

Hope you're hungry.

S.L. Toddard| 11.25.09 @ 9:11AM

That is a meal I would relish. Unfortunately, it won't happen.

tailgunner| 11.25.09 @ 1:07PM

"...Good criminal defense attorneys are seldom deterred by futility, so it's reasonable to expect that KSM's lawyers will make all the arguments there are to make: They'll allege a violation of KSM's right to a speedy trial, claiming that the years he spent in CIA detention and Gitmo violated this constitutional right.

They'll seek suppression of KSM's statements, arguing (persuasively) that the torture he endured—sleep deprivation, noise, cold, physical abuse, and, of course, 183 water-boarding sessions—make his statements involuntary. They will insist that everything stemming from those statements must be suppressed, under the Fourth Amendment, as the fruit of the wildly poisonous tree.

They will demand the names of operatives and interrogators, using KSM's right to confront the witnesses against him to box the government into revealing things it would prefer to keep secret—the identities of confidential informants, the locations of secret safe houses, the names of other inmates and detainees who provided information about him, and a thousand other clever things that should make the government squirm.

The defense will attack the CIA, FBI, and NSA, demanding information about wiretapping and signal intelligence and sources and methods.

They'll move to dismiss the case because there is simply no venue in the United States in which KSM can get a fair trial. "

http://www.slate.com/toolbar.a.....id=2236146

Would you like fries with that, sir?

tailgunner| 11.25.09 @ 1:16PM

Slate claims all these motions will be denied and said denials will be upheld on appeal...leading to more government 'authority' to 'torture' terror suspects.

There's an argument there. But even Slate is admitting the obvious; that KSM's attorneys will drag this country, its intelligence officials, procedures and techniques, and the entire GWOT into open court for the sole benefit of Islamic terrorists worldwide.

But of course you know more than Slate and every other source who has supported them.

Richard Baker| 11.22.09 @ 10:09AM

Friends:
The solution for idiots like Toddard and Liberal Reader is to totally ignore them. These hapless fools absolutely live for anyone responding to them. Don't answer, respond, or dignify their inane thoughts with anything. If someone were shouting obvious nonsense on a street corner that you could hear while passing by, would you go over and listen?

Margie| 11.22.09 @ 12:43PM

What IS excellent though, is that the many thousands who may read here get to see the difference between the mental disorder known as Liberalism, and the Truth.
It is clear that the Truth is winning.
"The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it." Jn. 1:5.

cuthean| 11.22.09 @ 4:56PM

obama x wishes his muslim brother nidal hasan had killed more white american soldiers while he allows the muslims in afghanistan to bleed and finish off the American forces there.

Counter Revolution| 11.23.09 @ 5:02AM

Since taking office Barack Obama, who promised during his campaign to create a moderate, inclusive administration, has engaged in actions that have created division and fear because they are meant to radically change America, not improve on what has always worked. As a result, David Horowitz writes in Barack Obama’s Rules for Revolution: The Alinsky Model, “Many Americans have gone from hopefulness, through unease, to a state of alarm as the President shows a radical side only party visible during his campaign.”

Barack Obama’s Rules for Revolution: The Alinsky Model provides an understanding of the roots of the current administration’s effort to subject America to a wholesale transformation by looking at the work of one of the President’s heroes—radical Chicago “community organizer” Saul Alinsky. The guru of Sixties radicals, Alinsky urged his followers to be flexible and opportunistic and say anything to get power, which they can then use to destroy the existing society and its economic system. Alinsky died in 1972, but left behind an organization in Chicago dedicated to his malicious ideas. This team hired Barack Obama in 1986 when he was 23 and taught him how to organize for radical transformation.

In this insightful new booklet, Horowitz discusses Alinsky’s work in the 60s—and his advice to radicals to seize any weapon to advance their cause. This became the philosophy of Alinskyite organizations such as ACORN and to Alinsky disciples Van Jones, a self described “communist” who served as President Obama’s “Green Czar” until he was forced to resign when his extremist ideas became public. Download a copy of this book here:
http://frontpagemag.com/2009/11/20/barack-obama’s-rules-for-revolution-the-alinsky-model-by-david-horowitz/

Tex Expatriate| 11.24.09 @ 7:09PM

R. Emmett Terrell wrote a book about Clinton called Boy Clinton. It took U.S. voters eight years to wise up about this man-child. This president-poseur, or poseur-president, is an even sillier, shallower boy. I have a grandaughter eleven years old who would make a better president. Knowing what she doesn't know, she would bring in people who did know. And she would not look to people who had served in government before.

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