The American Spectator : Afghanistan RX: Courage Pills

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Afghanistan RX: Courage Pills

By Peter Hannaford on 9.25.09 @ 6:07AM

Skittishness will get our president nowhere.

It was the "good" war -- at least that's what Afghanistan came to be called in last year's Obama campaign. We had diverted resources to Iraq, the "bad" war, Barack Obama said, when we should have been concentrating on getting Osama bin Laden.

Obama's left-wing base, always skittish about being thought of as unpatriotic, was thus given a comfy rationale for supporting a war. Once in office, the new president came up with a new Afghanistan strategy in March. We would add more troops, press our NATO allies to do the same and try a version of the Iraq surge to win over the inhabitants of towns and villages freed of the Taliban. He later replaced the commander there with Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the special ops chief, who would tell the administration just what was needed to win.

The president's enthusiasm dimmed in August when polls began showing that a slight majority of Americans had decided the war wasn't worth the money. Now, that small majority opposes sending more troops. Support has held among conservatives, Republicans and some independents, but has been dropping among Democrats.

Secretary of Defense Gates, who through several administrations has always cut his suit to fit the cloth, began to waffle about Afghanistan. In August, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs went to Afghanistan to try to persuade Gen. McChrystal not to send in a request for more troops.

Early this week, the McChrystal request for 40,000 troops was leaked. Confusion reigned and still does. Gates and the White House said the whole strategy was under review. That leading military strategist George Will had earlier suggested in a column that we pull out entirely and win the war with aerial drone attacks on Taliban strongholds. This appealed to more than a few in the administration and on the left, for no-risk wars are the only kind they like.

Then Vice President Biden weighed in with a version of the cut-run-and-bomb-with-drones approach. He thinks we should target enemy leaders and financiers via drone, à la Pakistan. This is easier said than done. This tactic has succeeded once we began to get the necessary on-the-ground intelligence from the Pakistan military to pinpoint the targets. We do not have the same resources in Afghanistan and would have to build them. This takes time. These facts don't deter Joe Biden who, you will recall, proposed to bring the Iraq war to a successful conclusion by dividing that country in three (perhaps he'd spent a sleepless night reading Caesar's Gallic Wars).

One nameless senior White House aide opined this week that Gen. McChrystal's job was to concentrate on the situation in Afghanistan, but there were larger considerations beyond his ken, such as Pakistan, oil sources, Iran, North Korea, sun spots and fallen arches.

The leak of the McChrystal troop request forced the issue. Now, the Pentagon says it will not sit on the formal request after all, although it did deny bipartisan Congressional requests to have Gen. McChrystal testify. This prohibition no doubt came from the White House, which is unsure of what to do and fears that McChrystal's testimony, like Gen. Petraeus's about the Iraq surge, will remove Congressional doubts about sending the troops required to win the war.

"Pacifying" Afghanistan is a quantitatively tougher job than cleaning out dense neighborhoods in large cities, which was the situation in Iraq. Afghanistan consists largely of hundreds of towns and villages dispersed over a large, rugged terrain. To train an enlarged Afghan army will take many more U.S. and NATO troops than are now there. And, going from village to village to clean out Taliban and al Qaeda will take time and many troops of both armies.

The alternative is withdrawal. Anyone who thinks this will be seen in the Middle East and South Asia as anything other than a victory for al Qaeda and the Taliban has not been paying attention.

The time has come for Mr. Obama to stop dithering, take down that bottle of courage pills from the shelf and swallow some of them.

(Mr. Hannaford is a member of the Committee on the Present Danger.)

topics:
Joe Biden, Afghanistan War, George Will

About the Author

Peter Hannaford is a member of the board of the Committee on the Present Danger. His latest book is Reagan's Roots: The People and Places That Shaped His Character.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (79) | Leave a comment

John - TMF| 9.25.09 @ 7:37AM

You are fundamentally correct. However, you are wasting your "breath". The One and his Democrat Minions have NO intention of sticking around. They never did.

They picked up the presumed benign Afghan fig leaf to cover their private parts. Only now do they realize that the fig leaf was covered with fire-ants...

The Democrats never meant a word of their support for the war in Afghanistan. It was the "good war" because it was the "easy, low cost, claim victory, and spend the saved money on vote buying schemes" war.

Iraq was always the war, that if conducted properly and with purpose , would be the most successful. Even though it is hopelessly tribal, Iraq at least had "federal" possibilities, and was a functioning Westphalian state.

Afghanistan is a 10th century tribal intersection, and has no actual national identity. It is an infinitely more difficult proposition to stabilize and make peaceable. That also equates to dangerous and expensive.

If we want to "win" in Afghanistan we will be there for many decades to come. To start, we must win the trust of the tribes, and that trust is only earned by 10th century standards.

Tenth Century peasant mentalities trust only those "governing entities- chiefs, imams, leaders, etc." who provide security and stability first.

The Taliban promises to stop abusing and murdering the people "IF" the people accept the Taliban's rules. So the people meekly accept the rules and are beaten less often, and rewarded occasionally. Mankind lived like this for eons, there is little use in dreaming that it will change overnight.

Which brings me back to the main point. The Democrat Party has no stomach for such work. Such endeavors mean standing for something, taking risks, spending capital, and doing the difficult and dangerous leg work. Democrats like easy cheap things.

The next year will be telling. My guess is that the Dems will do the Liberal thing, and devote too few resources, and too little effort to the cause, and by 2011 will withdraw troops from both Iraq and Afghanistan.

They'll come up with some excuse... and run like a scalded cat. Why? Because cowardice dictates it.

:-/
The Mighty Fahvaaag

Alan Brooks| 9.26.09 @ 8:02PM

It needs to be said over and over:
It's not only who fights a war, it's who started a war. We sided with Stalin, who was worse than Hitler, because his regime's armed forces invaded the Soviet Union. However if Stalin had invaded Germany in 1942 or '43, we might been allied against Russia. Nobody knows.
But we do know that the Soviets started this current war by invading Afghanistan-- but since the Soviet Union no longer exists, the Russians are covered. Anyway, we are less culpable than the Russkies.
There are no good nations, only less destructive ones.

Alan Brooks| 9.25.09 @ 8:28AM

We should keep reminding the oracle Toddard who invaded Afghanistan in '78, with a full scale imperialist invasion in '79, triggering Al Qaeda.

S.L. Toddard| 9.25.09 @ 9:10AM

That is a good point, Mr. Brooks - foreign invasions of Afghanistan inevitably lead to failure and other unintended disastrous consequences. I agree that we should indeed heed the lessons of the failed Soviet conquest of Afghanistan.

Alan Brooks| 9.25.09 @ 12:46PM

Zo, mein fuhrer,
you agree Brezhnev's politburo, not Bush's administration, WERE (they are no longer in power) the proximate causitive agents, thus
Bush and his people WERE (they are no longer in power) basically only reacting to what the Soviets set in motion years before?
Somezink like dat, Ja Ja?
by die vay, ver ist your identifikation, hmm?
Are you Bluish?
Vell, you don't look, Bluish...

Alan Brooks| 9.25.09 @ 3:30PM

the story of the communist regimes that ruled Afghanistan from 1978 to 1989: how they came to power, how they ruled and how they fell from power. At first it might seem paradoxical that communism would ever come to a country as conservative and traditional as Afghanistan. But it is not so odd at all. In actually communism as it developed under Stalin is a form of feudalism, almost tribalistic feudalism. For the intellectuals of a feudal country the ideology and practices of communism are much closer to their culture than the Western market economies. Today the greatest threat to Afghanistan comes from that master subversive, SL Toddard, the most sinister figure in the 21st century.

S.L. Toddard| 9.25.09 @ 6:22PM

We might disagree on... well, everything, but you're a fun guy to shoot the breeze with.

Skoal!

Alan Brooks| 9.26.09 @ 7:52PM

Hoch!

victor| 9.28.09 @ 12:51AM

Hey, how 'bout a few choruses of the Horst Wessel Song, eh boys?

S.L. Toddard| 9.25.09 @ 8:35AM

"If we want to "win" in Afghanistan we will be there for many decades to come."

Precisely - which is why all conservatives must demand that we leave *now*. It is a fact that war is incompatible with constitutional government. War requires the suspension of constitutional government because, as William F Buckley stated, "neither an offensive nor a defensive war can be waged...except through the instrumentality of a totalitarian bureaucracy within our shores". War is the *enemy* of constitutional government. We can either choose to be a war-fighting Empire in a state of permanent war, or we can choose to be a Constitutional Republic, as the Founders intended.

We are the most powerful nation in the history of the world. If any nation has the power to be at peace it is us - the lone, unchallenged superpower. Conservatives have to decide whether or not they are *conservative* - which is to say, whether they want to *conserve* our Constitutional government and way of life, or whether they want to permanently abandon that path, and accept a radical transformation into a permanent war-fighting Empire, with all the Big Government centralization that entails by definition.

"Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied : and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manners and of morals, engendered by both. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."

- James Madison, 1790

Alan Brooks| 9.25.09 @ 3:17PM

The Soviets established a special commission on Afghanistan, of KGB chairman Yuri Andropov, Boris Ponomarev from the Central Committee and Dmitry Ustinov, the Minister of Defense. In late April 1978, they reported that Amin was purging his opponents, including Soviet loyalists; his loyalty to Moscow was in question; and that he was seeking diplomatic links with Pakistan and possibly the People's Republic of China. Of specific concern were Amin's secret meetings with the US chargé d'affaires J. Bruce Amstutz, which, while never amounting to any agreement between Amin and the United States, sowed suspicion in the Kremlin.
Information obtained by the KGB from its agents in Kabul provided the last arguments to eliminate Amin. Supposedly, two of Amin's guards killed the former president Nur Muhammad Taraki with a pillow, and Amin was suspected to be a CIA agent. The latter, however, is still disputed: Amin repeatedly demonstrated official friendliness to the Soviet Union. Soviet General Vasily Zaplatin, a political advisor at that time, claimed that four of President Taraki's ministers were responsible for the destabilization. However, Zaplatin failed to emphasize this enough.
Also during the 1970s, the Soviet Union reached the peak of its political influence in comparison to the U.S. as the SALT I treaty was created to cooperate in matters of nuclear weapons and technology between the two nations. A second round of talks between communist leader Brezhnev and president Carter yielded the SALT II treaty in June 1979, which the U.S. Senate though, failed to ratify. This process would eventually culminate and lead up to the buildup and invasion of Afghanistan in December 1979 to preserve, stabilize and militarily intervene on behalf of the communist regime there.
On December 7, 1979, Soviet informants to the Afghan Armed Forces who were under orders from the inner circle of advisors under Soviet leader Brezhnev, relayed information for them to undergo maintenance cycles for their tanks and other crucial equipment. Meanwhile, telecommunications links to areas outside of Kabul were severed, isolating the capital. With a deteriorating security situation, large numbers of Soviet airborne forces joined stationed ground troops and began to land in Kabul on December 25. Simultaneously, Amin moved the offices of the president to the Tajbeg Palace, believing this location to be more secure from possible threats. According to Colonel General Tukharinov and Merimsky, Amin was fully informed of the military movements, having requested Soviet military assistance to northern Afghanistan on December 17. His brother and General Dmitry Chiangov met with the commander of the 40th Army before Soviet troops entered the country, to work out initial routes and locations for Soviet troops.
On December 27, 1979, 700 Soviet troops dressed in Afghan uniforms, including KGB and GRU special force officers from the Alpha Group and Zenith Group, occupied major governmental, military and media buildings in Kabul, including their primary target - the Tajbeg Presidential Palace.
Soviet paratroopers aboard a BMD-1 in Kabul
That operation began at 19:00 hr., when the Soviet Zenith Group destroyed Kabul's communications hub, paralyzing Afghan military command. At 19:15, the assault on Tajbeg Palace began; as planned, president Hafizullah Amin was killed. Simultaneously, other objectives were occupied (e.g. the Ministry of Interior at 19:15). The operation was fully complete by the morning of December 28, 1979.
The Soviet military command at Termez, Uzbek SSR, announced on Radio Kabul that Afghanistan had been "liberated" from Amin's rule. According to the Soviet Politburo they were complying with the 1978 Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation and Good Neighborliness and Amin had been "executed by a tribunal for his crimes" by the Afghan Revolutionary Central Committee. That committee then elected as head of government former Deputy Prime Minister Babrak Karmal, who had been demoted to the relatively insignificant post of ambassador to Czechoslovakia following the Khalq takeover, and that it had requested Soviet military assistance.
Soviet ground forces, under the command of Marshal Sergei Sokolov, entered Afghanistan from the north on December 27. In the morning, the 103rd Guards 'Vitebsk' Airborne Division landed at the airport at Bagram and the deployment of Soviet troops in Afghanistan was underway. The force that entered Afghanistan, in addition to the 103rd Guards Airborne Division, was under command of the 40th Army and consisted of the 108th and 5th Guards Motor Rifle Divisions, the 860th Separate Motor Rifle Regiment, the 56th Separate Airborne Assault Brigade, the 36th Mixed Air Corps. Later on the 201st and 58th Motor Rifle Divisions also entered the country, along with other smaller units. In all, the initial Soviet force was around 1,800 tanks, 80,000 soldiers and 2,000 AFVs. In the second week alone, Soviet aircraft had made a total of 4,000 flights into Kabul. With the arrival of the two later divisions, the total Soviet force rose to over 100,000 personnel.
Soviet troops entered Afghanistan along two ground routes and one air corridor, quickly taking control of the major urban centers, military bases and strategic installations. However, the presence of Soviet troops did not have the desired effect of pacifying the country. On the contrary, it exacerbated a nationalistic feeling, causing the rebellion to spread even more. Babrak Karmal, Afghanistan's new president, charged the Soviets with causing an increase in the unrest, and demanded that the 40th Army step in and quell the rebellion, as his own army had proved untrustworthy. Thus, Soviet troops found themselves drawn into fighting against urban uprisings, tribal armies (called lashkar), and sometimes against mutinying Afghan Army units. These forces mostly fought in the open, and Soviet airpower and artillery made short work of them.

S.L. Toddard| 9.25.09 @ 3:48PM

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the Soviet Union and reinforcing my argument, unless you agree with me. The Soviet Empire launched a massive bid for conquest and lost, disastrously.

The Soviet Union was perhaps the most sinister, evil, oppressive and most destructive nation in the history of the world. That we are following in their footsteps - becoming more and more like them by the day - is not something I need you to remind me of. From our Imperialist conquests, our permanent state of war, and our failing attempt to conquer Afghanistan to our system of trail-free gulags, our torture chambers and our KGB-esque domestic spying regime, we seem to have learned all the wrong lessons from the Cold War and are now emulating that nation we so recently consigned to the ash heap of history.

The real tragedy is that people who profess to be "conservatives" are those who most vociferously cheer on the Sovietization of our Republic.

Alan Brooks| 9.26.09 @ 8:10PM

"to our system of trail-free gulags, our torture chambers and our KGB-esque domestic spying regime"

the scale is not comparable at all-- and you know it, Todd. Stalin's regime was so much worse that it is a joke to compare the two.
It does look like we'll be chased out of Afghanistan, but maybe we'll end up in Pakistan.
Iraq? I don't know, and neither do you.

BTW, I don't 'believe' in "good" regimes, or even in goodness.
there are only greater and lesser shades of 'badness'.

JBobs| 9.25.09 @ 9:24AM

The rules of engagement allowed by Obama (and Bush as well) for our fine fighting men make this a no-win war, no matter how many forces we deploy. Get out now, let Obama rationalize our withdrawal (defeat) as another example of the U.S. anti-empire character, and let our boys regroup for future battles to come.

Matt| 9.25.09 @ 10:08AM

Unfortunately if we cut and run we will foster more brazen attacks from terrorists. We also send a clear message to Israle that they are on their own. We should prepare for a Middle East conflict the likes of whcih we have never seen ebfore. We should also prepare for the closing of the Straits of Hormuz and gas prices skyrocketing.

Richard Baker| 9.25.09 @ 11:17AM

The Kenyan is inept and cowardly. This clown is going to make LBJ's handling of the Vietnam War look like masterful handling. Elections do have consequences, don't they?

JT in SC| 9.25.09 @ 11:28AM

Taking "courage pills.." Obama is probably forming a blue ribbon panel to decide if that is within or above his pay grade. This guy is an empty suit, a complete joke...and the enemies of the United States are the ones laughing... While American citizens who work hard and try to raise decent families pay the price now and will continue to in the future.

What really nauseates me...?? We have over 3 more years of this socialist clown, his minions and the suck-up mainstream media to put up with....

One thing that is positive...every time I see Obama, Biden or other democrat leaders on t.v. I have instant relief of any constipation or irregularity I might be suffering from.

Bram| 9.25.09 @ 11:37AM

I never bought the "good war" thing. Ralph Peters was right when he said that Iraq is the battlefield we chose, Afghanistan is the battlefield the enemy chose.

Despite our less than tough administration (except on bankers) we are due to make some tough decisions. Obama and the political leadership have to define "victory" there. Is it just to kill lots of terrorists or nation building?

Once victory is defined, the military and State Department can create plans to get us there or get us out. The biggest challenge to victory is probably the corrupt and uncooperative Karzia government.

Margie| 9.25.09 @ 5:27PM

Victory? I must remind you that Obama has said that he "doesn't LIKE the word."
How about all these fake phony fraudulent so-called conservatives/Commies by any other name, have to be the ones who go fight for us? If they hate their country so much I say we call them Treasonists and send them all out to all learn a good lesson. If you are going to be bad little Americans, you will have to go and fight for us. Instead of being hung like in the "old days", they are are allowed to live, but they must fight. Either put up or shut up. Fight along with us or take your punishment! Ha!

L. Ross| 9.25.09 @ 12:15PM

What makes a king out of a slave? Courage! What makes the flag on the mast to wave? Courage! What makes the elephant charge his tusk in the misty mist, or the dusky dusk? What makes the muskrat guard his musk? Courage! What makes the sphinx the seventh wonder? Courage! What makes the dawn come up like thunder? Courage! What makes the Hottentot so hot? What puts the "ape" in apricot? What have they got that Obama ain't got?

Courage

KyMouse| 9.25.09 @ 2:16PM

I guess there's no denyin' he's just a dandy lyin'...

Ken (Old Texican)| 9.25.09 @ 1:02PM

Good comments, guys.

One thought:
"Character truly does matter!"

This President has no character. He certainly has an agenda. He certainly hates America as we know it. He is a traitor to his oath of office. He has no intention of defending the constitution as it exists, but only as he can re-grow it.

I shall go further. His very "firstest" act as US President was a bald faced lie: " I will protect and defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic..."

Believe it! This man will do a lot of damage to our country. We can repair it, but you know, he and his helpers, and his helpful idiots have made a calculation!
That calculation is that they can ride the "Tiger", both foreign and domestic.
They believe they can crush domestic opposition by starving us out one business by one business, and one job by one job. They believe we will submit.
Many of you will. You will use all sorts of rationalizations..."I've got kids...I've got to make a living...I'm going to keep my head down and let others do the heavy lifting..." and a million others.

You are overlooking some realities however.
1. There really is a hostile world outside our borders that is going to start nipping away at our hamstrings....very soon.
2. There is no way...no way...you can dodge the consequences of these people in power.
3. You and I will pay the price for freedom and liberty, even if you hide in your basement.
4. Martial law is one staged incident away no matter how carefully we walk the line. It will be called "national emergency" which as you might know gives a sitting President almost unlimited powers.
5. I know most of you are frightened. So am I, and so is every member of TEAM America.
6. Courage is merely swallowing the fear and doing what must be done to preserve your (decent) life and that of our country.
7. The "sovereignty" Obama was delegating to the UN over the last few days is YOUR sovereignty...OUR "We the People" sovereignty.

Well .....there are a lot of realities to face.

I read a phrase by a brilliant columnist yesterday.
"...the inchoate voices of an aroused citizenry at the tea-parties..."
Definition of inchoate: incomplete, rudimentary.

We at TEAM AMERICA have chosen to try our best to "complete" the voices and their message, and to step ahead of the curve to peer into our alternate routes into the future as free Americans.

We are creating a network among the grass root voices across this country to help them all unite in one voice saying one thing: "You are fired"!

ie: "Youall can squat in the whitehouse, and you can squat in your congressional offices until your firing is effected, but WE can choose to SIT DOWN in our various harnesses until you clean out your desks."
That is the true vote that it may come to ladies and gentlemen...but we need to organize it and time it for maximum impact...nation wide.
www.myteamusa.org
Please help us if you decide to serve liberty.

rdman| 9.26.09 @ 1:58PM

The United States could take a lesson from brave, little Honduras. Their Congress and Supreme Court acted lawfully in accordance with their Constitution (despite the leftist media, UN, OAS labeling it an illegal military coup) and gave the boot to Mad Mel Zelaya, a Chavez/Castro and soon-to-be Obami wannabe.

You're right on the mark, Ken!!! Obami and his thugs will steal the 2010 and 2012 elections by manufacturing some sort of national crisis and then imposing martial law.

Red Phillips| 9.25.09 @ 2:38PM

"the Committee on the Present Danger"

Could you get anymore Orwellian? That is rivaled only by the "Office of Special Plans" for most Orwellian designation.

The real "present danger" is that we are broke and can no longer afford such nonsensical foreign adventuring. We should bring the boys home. All the boys - Iraq, Afghanistan, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, etc. And fight terrorism by minding our own business and not intervening and restriction immigration. That is THE CONSERVATIVE solution. Interventionism is Utopian liberal internationalism.

victor| 9.28.09 @ 12:55AM

Right, we have untold TRILLIONS to give to union goons, illegals, ACORN and all of O-Bah-Ma's Czars, don't we and we have not a dime to help protect and nurture democracies round the globe?
Yeah, lurking in the basement while our front yard is being torched.

Pingback| 9.25.09 @ 2:42PM

Twitter Trackbacks for The American Spectator : Afghanistan RX: Courage Pills [spect links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

…Spectator 111 Show more Shortened Links Linking to the spectator.org page http://bit.ly/DO2gu info http://bit.ly/loDga info http://tinyurl.com/ydkt5p3 3 tweets Tweet The American Spectator : Afghanistan RX: Courage Pills spectator.org/archives/2009/09/25/afghanistan-rx-courage-pills – view page – cached It was the "good" war -- at least that's what Afghanistan came to be called in…

Josh Price| 9.25.09 @ 2:48PM

Afghanistan RX:

Relax the ridiculous Rules of Engagement that Bush, Obama, Gates , Mullen, and McChrystal instituted. they are handcuffing our men and women over there.

Our leaders value the lives of Afghan civilians more than our own servicemen and men. Just read McChrystal's assessment where he says that we have been "preoccupied" with the protection of our forces over the security of the Afghan people. Wow.

We don't need more troops. We need fewer restrictions on the use of force. Oh, and let's start exploiting our air superiority. That would be great. Thanks.

Josh Price
theconservativebeacon.net

Ken (Old Texican)| 9.25.09 @ 3:32PM

Well, stupid is as stupid does!
Thanks Red! Bring the boys home and let's fight this war on our soil. Heck, it saves gas and what the heck? A few more 9/11s don't matter.

Josh, great thought! "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out!".....(pssssst...wrong!)

C'mon, guys, you must have better ideas than that!

Red Phillips| 9.25.09 @ 3:46PM

"let's fight this war on our soil."

Ken, I'm glad you brought up that old canard. Please work out for me a plausible scenario whereby we have to fight a war with Muslim terrorists on our soil. Where will they invade? Miami beach? New York harbor? How will they get here? Will their air force bring them? Their massive navy? What kind of tanks, cannons, missiles, etc. will they have? You get the point. Flesh this out for me a little.

I am anxiously awaiting your reply.

victor| 9.28.09 @ 12:57AM

No, they'll be flying in on Flight 11 tomorrow and you'll be asleep.
Ever wonder why all those Amtrak trains run off the tracks? Or who is taking pictures of our subways?

Tim| 9.25.09 @ 4:28PM

9-11-01.
Plausible enough for you?

Red Phillips| 9.25.09 @ 4:42PM

Tim, thanks for partially making my point. 9/11 was an act of stateless terrorism and required a response to stateless terrorism. Instead we invaded two nation states and are now attempting nation building. The "fight them over there or we will have to fight them over here" mantra is totally mindless boilerplate. Maybe you can help Ken work this out for me. You know what they say about two minds. How does an army of Muslim terrorists get over here to fight a war with us on our shores that we are somehow preventing by being over there? Good luck.

rdman| 9.26.09 @ 1:29PM

Red... the Muslim terrorists (cells) are already here... they infiltrated with student visas and our porous borders. Do you actually believe they need a conventional army to land and invade our shores, Moron???

Nation building???... like building roads, infrastructure systems (water, sewers, electric services), schools, hospitals... is that what you mean???

victor| 9.28.09 @ 1:00AM

How did Nazi submariners get here to land on Long Island with 200,000 in cash, fake ID's and explosives in 1942. Hmmm?

Josh Price| 9.25.09 @ 5:07PM

@Ken:

I didn't say to kill them all, but some of these "innocent" civilians aren't so innocent. They aiding the insurgents (though they aren't really insurgents; they are terrorists).

Bottom line is that we no longer fight wars ferociously. We fight politically correct, take our enemies' feelings into account fisticuffs. We have no will.

theconservativebeacon.net

Ken (Old Texican)| 9.25.09 @ 5:38PM

Red:

bullsfeathers) >> Ken, I'm glad you brought up that old canard. Please work out for me a plausible scenario whereby we have to fight a war with Muslim terrorists on our soil. Where will they invade? Miami beach? New York harbor? How will they get here? Will their air force bring them? Their massive navy? What kind of tanks, cannons, missiles, etc. will they have? You get the point. Flesh this out for me a little.

I am anxiously awaiting your reply

Hi Red
Thank you for engaging in serious discussion...or are you?
OK........I am smarter than you...and I look beyond my johnson.
May I remind you of our VOLUNTEER service men and women...are trying to accomplish exactly that task...and dying and being crippled in the process?
Do you want to throw theiir efforts in the trash?
Oh...you do?
OK!
No, Red! No "invasion" is neccessary. "Infiltration" has so far been their tactic. They now own our President. congratulations, Ahmed. You lose!

(see above)

S.L. Toddard| 9.25.09 @ 6:18PM

What a pathetic dodge.

Old Texan - Red asked you to back up your meaningless talking point by describing to us all a "plausible scenario whereby we have to fight a war with Muslim terrorists on our soil". If you cannot do that, then admit that the scenario is nonsensical.

Ken (Old Texican)| 9.25.09 @ 6:27PM

Duh...Toddard
Look at your daily PRAVDA!

OK...they missed it......... go to FOX that still writes the news...
Or on the other hand, just go back to sleep and do wonderful stuff with Johnson.

S.L. Toddard| 9.25.09 @ 6:42PM

I'm sorry, perhaps you misunderstood - Red asked you to back up your meaningless talking point by describing to us all a "plausible scenario whereby we have to fight a war with Muslim terrorists on our soil". You know - the ridiculous foundation for your belief that we need to conquer huge swaths of the middle east. Surely something so essential to your worldview can be defended? No?

Margie| 9.25.09 @ 6:29PM

Toddard/Liberal Reader (the same troll) IS a pathetic dodge!

S.L. Toddard| 9.25.09 @ 6:43PM

Another gem from Margie. What an intellect. Such a grasp of the issues. Such penetrating insight.

victor| 9.28.09 @ 1:03AM

Hey Slo Todd, right after they cut our throats for telling them about Jesus and not accepting a**h, they will find you and cut yours.
Being a smart butt won't save you.

Margie| 9.25.09 @ 7:28PM

At least I tell the truth, Ms. Toddard/LibReader!

Robinsolana| 9.26.09 @ 6:25AM

Courage, we have got it, or at least our military has got it. That came as a surprise to our enemies in WWII, and many other wars.
What we missed by the end of Vietnam was political will.
The shameless Democrat Congress literally cut off the supplies and ammunition that was to be used to resist the invasion by the North Vietnamese Army. That is the direct reason why the helicopters flew off the roof of the American embassy.

Now we have the best soldiers and the best generals in Afghanistan. These are the troops that won the war in Iraq and the extreme leftist leadership in Washington and our media is trying to cut and run again. Somehow, they long for the Vietcong and a return to the '60s.

This is beyond foolish and verges on suicidal, but it does have the Vietnam precedent.

The result would be chaos with nukes. A revitalized Al Qaeda, Iran on the ascendant, and NATO shattered. The downside to cut and run is almost bottomless. With the evidence of recent terrorist plots in this country, we can expect terrorist bombs from Texas to Quantico.

On the positive side, there are things being accomplished in the Afghanistan, Pakistan, India area that we seldom hear about.
Peace between India and Pakistan grows slowly.
Terrorism is waning in Kashmir.
Pakistan is attacking the Taliban on its side of the border, thousands of Taliban have been killed. This is new. Terrorism is getting unpopular in Pakistan.
Al Qaeda leadership has been decimated and Ben Laden's son killed.
The Pakistani leader of the Taliban, assassin of Benazir Bhuto, has been killed; Baitulla Mehsud.
The Afghan governor of Nangahar has cleaned poppy out of that province. Showing it can be done.
There is an agricultural PRT in Gazni.
Large parts of Afghanistan are peaceful.
Afghanis detest Al Qaeda and dislike the Taliban. They tolerate the Americans and don't want them to leave, because they have seen the alternatives.

Our challenge is in Helmand where the drugs and Taliban are currently being fought and in Washington DC where our corrupt and feckless leftist leadership is waffling towards caving in to terrorists and retreating in our 'overseas contingency operation'.

Heaven help us all.

Margie| 9.26.09 @ 2:20PM

Thank you for being the News Media that we DON'T HAVE, sir. And I truly, truly mean that. The stupid Leftists who cry and complain for their so called peace are in fact the enemies of peace. This Leftist state run media IS the enemy. Except Fox. If there were any real justice they'd be hung for treason, IMHO.

Timothy L. Pennell| 9.26.09 @ 8:38AM

We don't need no sStinkin Courage Pills. What we DO need, is to take away all of the STUPID PILLS that 60 MILLION of us seem to have these days. Every 4 years we hold Presidential Elections. Every 4 years the Democrat touts his TOUGHNESS. He's TOUGH ON CRIME. And he's TOUGH ON DEFENCE. Every 4 years we go through his VOTING RECORD and we come up with the SAME INFORMATION. He is ALWAYS on the side of the CRIMINAL. He's ALWAYS AGAINST THE COPS. He NEVER saw a WEAPONS SYSTEM that he didn't HATE. There's NEVER a reason to FIGHT. And OUR INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES are the REAL BAD GUYS. And every couple of Election Cycles, the folks with the STUPID PILLS win one, and the BAD GUYS go on a BINGE. Carter gave us The Ayatolla Khomeni, the U.S. Embassy debacle, and the Soviet Invasion Of Afghanistan. Clinton brought us BIN LADEN, The 1st World Trade Center Bombing, The Kobar Towers Bombing, The African Embassey Bombings, BLACK HAWK DOWN, The USS COLE Attack. All of these things gave our ENEMIES the assurity to pull off 911. Paper Tigers. Weak Horses. And now this little PUKE, is fixing to set the whole world on fire.
You give ME the reigns, and I'll FINISH this the way it's SUPPOSED to be finished. Like GERMANY got finished. Like JAPAN got finished. Like SHERMAN finished off the Confederacy. NO MERCY. "You wanna FIGHT? Let's fight. But when WE'RE FINISHED, you'll never fight again." That's the way our GRAND FATHERS FOUGHT. That's the way THEIR GRANDFATHERS fought. And they're HAILED as the GREATEST GENERATION. And it was the DESTRUCTION OF THEIR ENEMIES that made them great. And kept us SAFE. It's time we stopped PLAYING THE GAME. It's time WE STEPPED UP, and HONORED our FOREFATHERS, by grabbing hold of our ENEMY, and SNAPPING HIS NECK. FINISH IT!

S.L. Toddard| 9.26.09 @ 10:26AM

You're a goddamned horse's ass.

rdman| 9.26.09 @ 1:15PM

Now that's a real intelligent response.

Toddard, you are a goddamed hypocrite!!! You accuse others of dodging posts????

Moron!!!

Red Phillips| 9.26.09 @ 2:31PM

"Like SHERMAN finished off the Confederacy."

Timothy, I bet you think you are a conservative, don't you? Well news flash. THE CONFEDERACY WAS THE CONSERVATIVE SIDE IN THE WAR OF NORTHERN AGGRESSION. You are a freakin' idiot!

Margie| 9.26.09 @ 3:18PM

" Timothy, I bet you think you are a conservative, don't you? Well news flash. THE CONFEDERACY WAS THE CONSERVATIVE SIDE IN THE WAR OF NORTHERN AGGRESSION. You are a freakin' idiot!"

RED,
Confederates were conservative! Yeah right. And the devil disguises himself as an angel of light. And a man of peace.

victor| 9.28.09 @ 1:11AM

To quote the Bard, "Let's go to the Daguerreotape"
1- they believed in State's Rights - Check
2- they believed in small and limited federal gov't - check
3- they believed in fiscal responsibility - check
4-They believed in an immoral lifestyle; slavery- check?
Conservative? Umm, no.
Only one group fits all four bills and that's-Ta-da!
Libbbbertarrrrrians!
Fiscally responsible and socially immoral!
Go back to your basement, Red.

Margie| 9.26.09 @ 2:37PM

Amen to that! You are absolutely right. The true American spirit will not be held down. Like GW siad "Bring it on!"

hypocrites_are_everywhere| 9.27.09 @ 11:20PM

Margie,

Worship GW? "You are either with us or against us." What did Bush say that you don't understand, dimwit -- one of the many on this board? :(

victor| 9.28.09 @ 1:23AM

I don't know hypo_chondriac,
GW was my president.
I already have a Messiah.
Mine hung on a cross and rose to heaven and is coming back.
Let's see your try that, shall we?
BTW Matt 12:30 is what you're trying to refer to;
He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

hypocrites_are_everywhere| 9.27.09 @ 11:16PM

Timothy L. Pennell,

You are either

1. A big talker or
2. Any combination of the following (a dimwit; a right wingnut who jerks off everyday, more often since the election; a racist; a gun/religion clinger)

If one has to bet, you're a big talker! Big talkers (like most folks here) have puny brain & private part! :(

victor| 9.28.09 @ 1:24AM

Blah, blah, blob1bity, blah

Ken (Old Texican)| 9.26.09 @ 12:39PM

Red,
you seem to have jumped right over the word I used to describe Jihadist tactics. Hmmm, maybe your mind sorta' "hiccups" when you stare a fact in the face that you don't like.
"Infiltration"

I have heard illegal alien numbers from 12 million to 20 million in this country in these days. But nobody really knows.
Most likely, the overwhelming majority of them are simply trying to make a living...literally.
But!
How many wish us ill, and where are they from? Again, nobody knows.
OK
How many "legal" immigrants are here who wish us ill, and where are they from?

In a guerilla warfare/terrorism role how many people do YOU think it would take on the ground here for a "plausible scenario" ?

With the strictures on law enforcement in the US, digging these people out would be a nightmare.
But!
The darwinian effects of our efforts against jihadists has forced them to get smarter and more organized. They have essentially no limit to the funds they have access to, if in fact they are smart and can convince some wack job sheik that they could "strike effectively...and serially...here".
OK
Just for instance, how many random explosions in train stations across the country do YOU think it would take to have our government declare a national emergency ? Perhaps 20, before they switch targets to elementary schools, and perhaps switch again to shopping malls...etc etc etc.

Sir, I maintain to you, but more importantly to the thoughtful readers here, that the "plausible scenario" may have already occurred.

What might be worse is the fact that these may not be "suicide bombers", but rather serial killers with a pretty good chance of survival for an extended period.
One thing is certain. If a hundred "incidents" occurred over a fairly short period of time, the "open society" we enjoy today would be no more.
I will let others fill in the additional blanks, (silently to themselves), thankyouverymuch.

I'm not going to write the damned tactical manual for the bad guys.

Ken (Old Texican)| 9.26.09 @ 12:49PM

A further thought...
Our dedicated military has proven a great "fly-paper" mechanism in Iraq and Afghanistan both.

(For those of you too young, fly-paper was a sweet smelling paper with a sticky surface. When a fly landed on it to check it out, end of fly.)

Our rough men and women on the walls far from home work desperately hard to suck them in and end their careers. God bless them, for letting idiots here spout off idly about "plausible scenarios" from the comfort of their basement.

rdman| 9.26.09 @ 12:55PM

Once again for the idiots and morons out there!!

THE REAL EVIL-DOERS

Forty+ years ago, my generation volunteered to serve our country in Viet Nam. Fifty-eight thousand (58,000+) of us died and thousands more remain permanently disabled as a direct result of the appeasing, placating government lawyers/politicians who were more concerned with pacifying the Berkeley SDS goons, Marxists and anarchists, and the communist suppliers of war materiel to North Viet Nam.

With our hands tied during mortal combat operations and despite government malfeasance and their willing media accomplices, our magnificent young military men never lost a battle. Contrary to media propaganda, we defeated the Communists during the TET offensive. The North Vietnamese were ready to give up until the most trusted man in America, Uncle Walter announced that we could not win the war. That one statement energized the Leftist Radical Rats in gulags like Berkeley, which in turn reenergized the North Vietnamese Communists.

In primitive jungle tent hospitals with dirt floors, while the valiant and incredible humanity of our military nurses cared for our wounded and gave comfort to our dying, the cowardly lawyer-politicians in the hallowed marble halls of our Congress and our Whitehouse caved to political expediency and cut-off funds and support. We died in vain and those who survived continue to suffer in vain.

Millions more were slaughtered in the killing fields of Cambodia, Laos and Uncle Ho’s “reeducation” gulags in South Viet Nam by the power vacuum caused by criminal negligence of the government class of that era. These government cowards with law degrees and their media accomplices will forever live and die with the blood of our nation’s treasures on their hands.

Today, the latest generation of vacuous appeasers, placators and consensus seekers, in their unbridled and unprincipled pursuit for power and control, continue their perverted and shameless tradition of launching vicious attacks on our military during a time of military conflict.

In the face of this despicable conduct, 150,000+/- of our magnificent young military men and women struggle in the Middle East under absurd politically expedient limitations that are reminiscent of the mortal combat conditions imposed during the Viet Nam conflict. This is an incomprehensible criminality of the worst order, beyond spoken words!

The root cause falls at the feet of the “Good Old Boy’s Esquire Club” that makes up 94% of the US Congress. These leftist gangsters with law degrees, turned career politicians have become old despotic, corrupt, menopausal tyrants who believe they are a law unto themselves, cynically living in the world of realpolitik. What matters is to prevail… Expediency is All.

Conscience, Dignity, Integrity, Leadership, Statesmanship, Public Service and the Lessons of History are totally absent within the Government Class. The Founding Fathers and millions of veterans killed in action must certainly be turning in their graves. Our magnificent Constitution, our magnificent Country and We, the People are in mortal danger.

Centuries of history have clearly documented that appeasement, placating, political correctness, expediency, compromise and consensus-seeking is simply the Absence of Leadership, Statesmanship and Honor. The great General George Patton profoundly stated when men were men, “The lowest form of life is a politician. The lowest form of a politician is a liberal democrat (with a law degree).”

The real evil-doers need to be held to account by We, the People.

Margie| 9.26.09 @ 2:32PM

rdman~~ I don't know who you are but I love you!
(next to my husband, of course :^)) Thank you so much for those words.

God bless the U.S.A. and may He have great mercy on us, because I know we are going to need it.

"The great General George Patton profoundly stated when men were men, “The lowest form of life is a politician. The lowest form of a politician is a liberal democrat (with a law degree).”

...this certainly has come to fruition.

rdman| 9.26.09 @ 11:57PM

Well, thank you Margie. I love you too (next to my girlfriends, of course!!). Kidding aside... I do love you... you are a proud American and a loyal Patriot.

I usually sign as follows:

Robert D.
American Citizen Taxpayer
Retired Free Market Corporate Executive
Reagan Conservative
Viet Nam Combat Veteran

I am forever grateful for this great land that we are blessed to live in. Suffering from PTSD after leaving the horrors of trying to fight a political war in Viet Nam, then returning home to be screamed at as "Baby Killers" and being spate on by the minority lunatics of that time, Real Americans afforded me the opportunity to be the best that I could be despite my difficulties with PTSD.

Starting at the bottom, I worked through the ranks, started up several new divisions and a new start-up company that created thousands of good paying jobs with excellent benefits for our employees and their families.

Our annual picnics put a whole new perspective on our system of Liberty, Freedom and Opportunity... to meet our employees' families and all those little toddlers, children and youngsters approaching adulthood... I always thought this is what America is all about... until recently!!

Best wishes, stay strong and true. These trolls that pollute Conservative sites are the “Mentally Disordered Left”… Psychopathic Drones of anarchy, caucus, human misery and suffering… the atheist cultures of darkness and death. They will never prevail.

Margie| 9.27.09 @ 3:23PM

rdman,
Girlfriend(s), huh? Ha!

You, sir, have made not only my day, but the rest of my life. Seriously. I'm going to always remember that when the enemy keeps beating you down and you are just about ready to give up, that NOW's the time to keep fighting because the troops are right there with you!
YOU are what it's all about! A Patriot among Patriots, we honor you here and now, and always. Your service was not in vain, and God knows it. Thank God that you still have your fighting spirit and Faith in Him. You will always be in MY prayers,
~Margie

victor| 9.28.09 @ 1:29AM

Pity that Eisenhower listened to the Russkies and didn't let Patton continue and take Prague. Who knows where he might have ended up, eh?
Moscow, perhaps?

Ken (Old Texican)| 9.27.09 @ 10:44AM

Robert D.
God bless you and all of your brother vets.
Thank you for your service.

albert constantine, jr.| 9.28.09 @ 2:31PM

For those who have forgotten, in the Fall of 2001, Biden criticized the Bush administration's policy (special forces with air/fire support allied with the Northern Alliance) at that time as "high tech bullying", that would look bad to the rest of the world until we had "boots on the ground". There is no constant like consistency.

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