The American Spectator

Big J| 8.28.09 @ 7:22AM

I have to agree with you, Mr. Hillyer - within certain bounds.

I posted after these town halls started that we could not become like the Code Pinkers, whose sole purpose becomes disruption, rather than advancing a noble cause.

One of the problems is that these town hall protesters (the real ones, not the Organize for America group) don't really know how to act. When you watch them asking questions (coming from a truly educated and passionate standpoint), it's obvious that this is their first rodeo. Most of these people have never even CALLED their congress-critter's office, let alone showed up to a town hall meeting. Heck, in 38 years (prior to April 15th), I had never even dreamed of going to a protest. Ninety nine percent of those attending were in the same boat. It is little wonder that tempers flare in this group, especially over an issue that is so personal and destructive to the unalienable rights Mr. Hillyer discusses above.

That said, I believe there is a time and a place for everything. Go to your congressmen and ask questions. Be passionate but civil. If (when) he / she refuses to answer your questions, or is obviously lying, time to start yelling. When that doesn't work anymore, time to place said congressman of your knee and administer a g0od 'ole fashioned spankin'.

At least that's the way I was raised, and it seemed to have worked out pretty good.

Melvin| 8.28.09 @ 7:25AM

For all this anger that is percolating out there, the we must look beyond the health care issue. Not that long ago it used to be Conservatives on the ropes in these public gatherings, with a silent deer in the headlight stare.
What we see evolving through all this public debate, is distrust, anger, and Americans that are just plain sick and damn tired of the lying, cheating, conniving corrupt politicians.
Americans are not furious at health care, we are furious at our government.
Americans have elected Republicans expecting an honest responsive government, the Republicans failed in fulfilling that promise.
So America turned to the Democrats expecting an honest and responsive government. The Democrats also failed, and since there is only a two party system Americans had no other political entity to turn to, so we turned on both the Republicans and Democrats.
We turned on both of these parties with the only thing that we had left and that was an outward display of anger and disgust at those who are supposed to represent the people.
But the bureacrats still have not recognized this, they blame us, and accuse us of being Astroturf, Nazi's, Brown-shirts, and unruly mobs.
I could go on and on, but what has happened is that both political parties have morphed into two very similar unities that no longer represent the people. These two political entities represent themselves, no longer are Americans described as Americans, but as Republican, Democrat, moderate, right wing, left wing, Liberal and or Conservative.
Just as Hillary took a reset button to the Russians, the same thing needs to be said about our government. Someone needs to push the reset button to where government is honest and responsive to the people. Either some smart bureaucrat presses this reset button or a very large number of freedom loving Americans will do it. Either way it is going to happen.
"Bureaucrat we can do this the easy way or the hard way, the choice is yours."

RestonConservative| 8.28.09 @ 7:25AM

Mr. Hillyer, as a conservative who was in attendance, I absolutely agree that the behavior of both sides was appalling. We conservatives do not help our cause when we are obnoxious. But I will say that I think the yellers (and I was not one) were frustrated over not being allowed to be heard. Moran said at the start of the program that he and Dean together would take 30 minutes, leaving 1.5 hours for questions. The meeting started 15 minutes late, Moran talked for over an hour, Dean (wisely) for only 5 – 10 minutes, which left less than 40 minutes for questions. Speaking of those questions, neither I nor any of the people around me were ever asked if we had questions – not during the one hour we were in line outside nor the one hour we waited in our seats, nor did we see boxes in which to put questions. Not to excuse the bad behavior, but I think the conservatives were frustrated that they weren’t going to be given much of a chance to say anything.

You ask where were the DC grassroots groups, Repub. Party, College Repubs, etc. – well, if they didn’t live in Moran’s district, they weren’t allowed inside. I’m sure you were there with a press pass, but those of us in line were made to fill out a form with our address, and if it wasn’t in his district, you didn’t get in. I live in his district, but two friends of ours (who live just a couple of miles away from the meeting place) don’t, and were denied entrance. They eventually got in – by going around to the other side, picking up the blue pre-printed pro-Obama signs, and walking quickly past the gate-checkers.

Jim Eilert| 8.28.09 @ 7:58AM

Quinn, I wholeheartedly agree with your commentary on civility.

However, why such a divergent perspective from Jim Geraghty's over at National Review Online?

Robert Rosencrans| 8.28.09 @ 8:41AM

All right Quin, we now have one, and only one documented instance of conservatives acting rude. Civility is the foundation of mankind and so is respect for the truth. You are a great writer. At this point you're beginning to sound like a 45 record stuck on the scratch.

adam| 8.28.09 @ 8:41AM

The townhall meetings are stunts, orchestrated so as to serve the interests of those who convene them. There's nothing wrong with that--politics is full of stunts (like the ridiculous Presidential "debates" we have every 4 years), and they serve their purposes. The protesters are, as someone just noted, inexperienced, but they might also be trying to turn these stunts into their own stunt. Those who have convened the event have a right to have them thrown out, in attempt to reclaim the stunt--we'll see how that goes, as we have videos of elderly folk dragged out of these meetings by security men. All this is part of political communication as well, and perhaps as time-honored as many others.

Michael Dooley| 8.28.09 @ 8:59AM

By inclination, I would agree Hillyer. My problem is that these events stopped being the exchange of views long ago. More than once, I have asked my question only to have the pol give a perfectly good answer t0 another question. No followup, of course. Another problem I have is since our congressmen don't really read or know what is in the bills they vote on, just what good is our devotion to civil discussion supposed to do? Maybe disruptive anger is the message they should hear.

JerseyJ| 8.28.09 @ 9:03AM

Well said Melvin. I'd only disagree with this ... "Just as Hillary took a reset button to the Russians, the same thing needs to be said about our government. Someone needs to push the reset button to where government is honest and responsive to the people."

I believe a "flush lever" as opposed to a "reset button" is necessary to rid ourselves of these buffoons.

Dave Lincoln| 8.28.09 @ 9:14AM

I agree with you this time, Quinn. There is no call for shutting down a meeting or talk, like the left has done on many occasions. As you said, the best strategy is to get the people out to the meeting, to be ready to ask some pointed questions and follow-ups without regard for the feelings of your "public servant", and if you can't even get inside, make your presence known outside.

If the other side has goons ready to obstruct entry, it is time to get a few of our side together for a show of force.

I don't really know what you have against South Park though. The phrase "South Park Conservative" does not mean a conservative that repeats some of the foul-mouthed things from the show. The phrase refers to libertarianism, as put across (yes, in a crude way many times) by the 2 great creators/writers of that show. I didn't like it the 1st 3, or 4 shows, BTW, but I like it now - give it a try, Quinn.

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.28.09 @ 9:43AM

Thank you Mr. Quinn for taking another crack at these thoughts.
But! WE ARE GOING TO BE SMEARED BY THE MEDIA IN ANY CASE!
They will find sooooomething to point their finger...and camera at, sir!

Good point Big J. Our first rodeo. One thought:
If a conservative voice will not be heard in these meetings, some brave soul should Shout once:
"Mr Congressman...YOU ARE FIRED!"

JimP| 8.28.09 @ 10:08AM

Quin keeps chopping, but the chips ain't flyin'.
Jim Geraghty likens the Reston TH to a HS basketball game- ie: loud enthusiasm from both sides.(h/t Jim Eilert) So we're back to interpretation, a la Quin's "Winning Without Wigging Out" column from the other week.

Quin and other conservatives are overreacting to the TH goings on. I've said it before here and on other blogs, we don't need lectures and hysterical columns telling us to "calm down". What we are seeing from conservatives is normal, healthy and isn't going to ruin conservatives reputations (except inside the beltway) or cost us victory in the battle of ideas. The only 'conservatives' concerned about the 'ROODness' live inside the bubbles, travel amongst the elites and visit their genteel salons.

2Anglico| 8.28.09 @ 10:13AM

Unfortunately, the time for civility has passed. The reason there is so much passion is that our nation is being stolen from us by thugs. The other side has been at war with us for years. It is time to wake up and face reality, however uncomfortable that might be. When a politician flat out lies, we are done sitting on our hands.
TO MAKE A POINT ONLY: When WILL it be ok to yell? On our way to the showers?

TennesseeVolunteer| 8.28.09 @ 10:13AM

Quin, I agree that the time for venting and anger are over. It is now time for action. It is now time for these Town hall Patriots to begin to educate their countrymen as to the threat this nation is under, to galvanize every voter who cares about individual freedom and the pursuit of happiness.
We have had our say and they are not listening. It is time to begin the process of voting them out, of getting every voter to the polls to remove the politicians of Big government from both sides who have squandered so many of this country's resources. It is time to make sure we have protections in place that our votes are not stolen, disregarded or dishonored by the most inevitable onslaught of cheating, election rigging and intimidation by the forces of the leftist liberals.
It is time that all good Americans stand for what is right. We have listened to this administration and have found it wanting. We have tried to speak and they dismissed us, marginalized us and are now 'community organizing' us.
Quin, this will not stand. It is time to prepare for the vote in 2010. Now it is our turn to speak but we will be better to speak with actions of organization followed by voting then to continue to listen to these charlatans and try to tell them how we feel. They could care less!
It is time to speak at the ballot box. If they see us turn our attention to that, they will shudder.

Nick| 8.28.09 @ 10:22AM

Mr. Hillyer,

I agree with you in principle about civility and how crass the culture has become. I, myself, am prone to be crass sometimes.

But I would offer criticism on a couple of points.

I think we tend to look at the past with rose-colored glasses sometimes. We should all remember this: Customs, circumstances, and technology CHANGE, people do not.

And while they had much better manners than we, the Founding generation was also human. They had a custom back then of tarring and feathering politicians. (I would like to bring it back, but I think Barney Frank would like it to much.)

I'm sure during the townhalls leading up to Concord and Lexington, passions flared just as much as at todays townhalls.

Also, remember that when President Lincoln was assassinated, some people who spoke their mind and said they were glad he was dead, were themselves killed for exercising their right to speak.

Secondly, people are "mad as hell, and aren't going to take it anymore!"
As Big J noted above, they shouldn't act like Code Pinkos, but showing anger is very American.

You may not want to stoop to the left's level, but many of us are sick of acting like Ghandi and letting the other side hit us with sticks without fighting back. That may work for social movements, but this is war by another means.

The left is finally getting a taste of it's own medicine! ...And that is a good thing.

Quin| 8.28.09 @ 10:26AM

The comment by Tennesse Volunteer at 10:13 a.m. above is right on target. THAT is the spirit! THAT is the right attitude and commitment. Thank you.

SullivanConservative| 8.28.09 @ 10:46AM

I agree that the meeting should not have been destroyed by Conservatives "shouting down" the speakers....UNLESS....the meeting was totally stacked to make it appear that the Conservatives are in the minority. When this happens, the entire meeting just becomes a Liberal photo-op. From what I have read of the August Montana TownHall meeting, 1500 tickets were printed for admission to the event and 600 tickets were passed out to the locals. What happened to the other 900? Bus loads of people were brought in with bullhorns and professionally made signs to "shout down" the local Obamacare protestors. Those poor cowboys out their holding their signs in protest of Obamacare looked like they had been dropped in the middle of the Sears "ladies underwear" department. If these events are done fairly, with local people bringing their complaints, I agree with you that everyone should be allowed to speak their mind and all should be given the opportunity to listen. When one side or the other attempts to manipulate the meeting by bringing in "ringers" to make a fabricated news event, the other side should shut it down, for the purpose of the meeting has already been lost.

Solo| 8.28.09 @ 10:56AM

I quite agree with your sentiment, Mr. Quinn.

I must respectfully disagree with its application in our current political climate.

For decades conservatives have patiently adhered to intellectual political intercourse with what is essentially a raving mob of thieves, rapists and liars. And...this mob has become very polished at delivering this pornographic political Kabuke. It's about time we wised up because we are on the precipice of losing it all...FOREVER!

When a gang of thugs kicks-in your door and proceeds to murder your wife, eat the flesh of your children and rape the family pet...you don't politely invite them for a nice, refreshing glass of sweet tea while calmly discussing your disagreement with their actions.

Like it or not...we are in a war. A 'cold' civil war for the survival of our republic and we've been losing for over 70 years because we refuse to recognize the nature of the enemy. We refuse to admit to ourselves that this enemy doesn't respect the rules as we view them. Hell....we, as conservatives, refuse to see them as "enemy" at all. But..they are the enemy- in the truest sense of the word.

"Intellectual debate"? "Shouting down the opposition"? Water off a duck's back to the leftist! They don't care. They really don't. They don't care because to them the acquisition of raw power makes what is "right"...and control of the masses makes for compliance.

"Rules For Radicals" spells it all out. Force the opposition to abide by their own rules and values....and then hang them with it.

You saw what happened....They screened the conservatives for residency while allowing the rent-a-mob with their pre-printed signs and chanting on cue through the side door in order to load the audience...and all for the cameras.

"Shouting down"? Being "rude"? LOL! They wouldn't have been completely unjustified to show up with baseball bats and blow-torches.
That's the way the left conducts intellectual debate...and we both know it.

Before it comes to that, maybe we better try a little loud rudeness. That pales in comparison for what the left has in store for us should we remain quiet and compliant.

Dedicated_Dad| 8.28.09 @ 11:19AM

Melvin -

"We turned on both of these parties with the only thing that we had left and that was an outward display of anger and disgust ..."

That's NOT the only thing we have left - but I pray to G*d that we are heard before we have to resort to "that thing."

This bubbling rage is but a foreshadow of what will come if the powers-that-be do not hear what We The People are saying.

Honor your oath!

DD

JimP| 8.28.09 @ 11:22AM

Tennesse Vol: respectfully, where have you been? Conservatives have been doing the following for months now: educating their countrymen to the threat this nation is under; and for the purpose of galvanizing every voter who cares about individual freedom; and for getting every voter to the polls to remove the politicians of Big government from both sides who have squandered so many of this country's resources; and preparing for the vote in 2010 to speak at the ballot box. The Tea Partiers, 9/12 Project people and other grassroots associations – including many of the ‘ROOD’ town hall protestors- have been doing these things since the TARP & Stimulus.

The time for venting and anger will be over when the people who are angry and venting no longer have the need to be angry and vent: Not before then, and we can’t just arbitrarily set a deadline for a cessation of emotion. Just because people are angry and venting at the Town Halls does not mean that they are not organizing and preparing in the ways you describe. The two are not mutually exclusive

Louis Jenkins| 8.28.09 @ 11:23AM

Many Conservative thinking people are mad and one cannot blame them!! Oh let's sit down and play patty cake with these Liberals at the town hall meetings. Let's be polite and not say anything to make them angry, or draw media attention!! Surely thinking and saying good thoughts will change the way the nice liberals think about and preceive us to be.

Enough already. Sometimes the only way to fight rudeness is with the same weapon. That seems to be the only thing these libs and their glued to the hip news media cronies understand. They see politeness as weakness. And when you dare voice your opinions, for a change, you are labeled terrorist, ignorant, Brown Shirt, Nazi, low browed, knuckel dragging,....etc. What is to be gained by being polite? Nothing so far but a sore backside!!

Big J| 8.28.09 @ 11:37AM

Ditto most commentary above.

Especially Solo.

Right on brother.

TenneesseeVolunteer| 8.28.09 @ 12:05PM

JimP, thanks for your comments. You make good pints but my contention is the misguided pols from iether side will pay more attention to what we do than what we say. For the most part, they have heard us. the time to take concerted action to elect representatives who give us a fair hearing is now. when they see that the silent majority is on the move, I think we'll see them understand it is our way or the highway! Regards to you and all of the posters on this site. I learn much from all of you

Oldefarte| 8.28.09 @ 12:41PM

Unfortionately, our nation's morals have declined over the years where civility, culture,etc are nothing more than forgotten memories. It all stems from a breakdown of the family structure through divorce [and of course the iniation of the homosexual agenda of same-sex marriage] and sadly from integration. The latter [1954's Brown case] was supposed to allow for the PULLING UP of the black race by association with the manners, civility, mores,etc of the white race; but shamefully has resulted in the opposite. Whites are emulating blacks in our public schools [listening to rap music, wearing their pants at butt-level,etc]; while blacks culturally rebel against the HONKEY lifestyle. Religious/church attendance/participation is being neutered by government and ignored by parents; and the lack of civility, repsect,etc is a natural consequence. As to the rowdiness of these meetings, it is simply a situation where hard working, tax-paying Americans have gotten fed up with the arrogance/abrasiveness of typical congressmen who think they can 'KENNEDYISK' their merry way in DC and that the back-home constituents can be duped into compliance. I think those days may now be [thankfully] over, thanks to this Obama/Democrats' healthcare, stimulus and cap/trade/tax policies. Americans were lathargic during Kennedy's/Johnson's Great Society bombardment of welfare legislation, but I think they have now finally woken up to the insane cost to themselves as taxpayers of this garbage. The true test will be the upcoming 2010/2012 elections, as to whether or not Americans are truely ticked off enough to finally do something about the financial mess that this country is in!!!!!

L. Ross| 8.28.09 @ 1:10PM

Quinn:

Couple of things. Going into a firefight with an olive branch is usually a losing proposition. I'm sorry, but if the level of discourse that wins the day is a shouting match, that is the level of discourse we need to be able to engage in.

Second point is this. South Park is rude, but it isn't aimed at children. You would be hard pressed to find better researched humor targeted against abortion, scientology, or islam. Sorry, but you are just showing your ignorance on this one.

Melvin| 8.28.09 @ 1:30PM

To Dedicated_Dad... Noted

Melvin| 8.28.09 @ 1:30PM

To Dedicated_Dad... Noted

Solo| 8.28.09 @ 1:37PM

Thank you, "Big J"!

"The sleeper has awakened".

Quin| 8.28.09 @ 1:44PM

To L. Ross: To be clear -- and I have made this point before -- it is not an either/or proposition between being dainty and being tough. Nowhere did I advocate "Going into a firefight with an olive branch is usually a losing proposition." To quote my own column: "There is a time and place for venting. A town hall meeting is definitely one of those times. Nothing is wrong with loudly expressing displeasure. Nothing is wrong with giving a little hell to mendacious politicians." I further note, as a defense of my tough-mindedness in a fight, the time the late great Bob Novak credited me for a victory against the late, greatly misguided Ted Kennedy: http://townhall.com/columnists....._man_flug. Kennedy then denounced me, specifically, on the Senate floor, and in a letter to Orrin Hatch. But he denounced me because I beat him. I'm all for fighting hard, and for winning big.

Louis Jenkins| 8.28.09 @ 1:52PM

Dear Old Farte:

"The latter [1954's Brown case] was supposed to allow for the PULLING UP of the black race by association with the manners, civility, mores,etc of the white race; but shamefully has resulted in the opposite. "

More truthful words are not spoken here on this site. Public education should inspire laggards, but it only serves to water down the end product. Make all the kids equally ignorant!! Black children who are achievers are called Oree-Os (spl). Can't have exceptionalism here, no, no, no!! America's chickens, nurtured by the likes of Teddy 'Boy, have come home to roost. What a legacy!! And we the commoners are supposed to be polite.

a| 8.28.09 @ 1:54PM

Blah Blah. I will not go quietly for the left.

Anthony| 8.28.09 @ 1:55PM

What is it with you so called conservative talking heads? Poor Quinn, wringing his hands that ordinary people are so outraged with the utter lies and deliberate distortions offered up to them by the people who supposedly WORK FOR THEM.
Oh, but we need to be civil, after all, the rudeness of it all, might offend.
Meanwhile, while Quinn bemoans our lack of civility and over at NRO, Mona Charon has to make excuses for not fawning over the career of Ted Kennedy, Obama and his thugs are writing legislation to take over the Internet.
Yes Quinn, while you emote over the Marquis of Queensbury's rules for pliant dupes, Obama is planning on slamming the door on your career. Oh, did I mention the Constitution? Might that merrit an "Oh, darn", or "I'm deeply disturbed by this intended legislation"?
Truly there is something in the water in D.C. that makes mice out of men.

CopyKatnj| 8.28.09 @ 1:59PM

RestonConservative said "They eventually got in – by going around to the other side, picking up the blue pre-printed pro-Obama signs, and walking quickly past the gate-checkers."

This says alot about what is going on and the frustration of many people at townhall meetings. While one side is required to observe rules of civility, the other side is not. What the congressman are getting "called on" is their dishonesty on all levels. Americans are now tired of the "fix".

Dai Alanye| 8.28.09 @ 2:00PM

There is a time for civility and a time for kicking the other fella in the teeth.
Civility usually fails with the deliberately uncivil, and it is into this category that both Moran and Dean fall.

As for Hillyer—although I generally like him, his angel wings are useless in this fight.

Louis Jenkins| 8.28.09 @ 2:11PM

Can't resist an addition to the comments. We all know the story, but as per World Net Daily, and other websites:

A conservative African-American man named Kenneth Gladney was offering small flags to those at the St. Louis Town Hall. He was viciously attacked by SEIU thugs.

Here's how Gladney's attorney, Robert Brown, describes what happened:

"Kenneth was approached by an SEIU representative as Kenneth was handing out 'Don't Tread on Me' flags to other conservatives. ... The SEIU representative demanded to know why a black man was handing out these flags. The SEIU member used a racial slur against Kenneth, [and] then punched him in the face. Kenneth fell to the ground. Another SEIU member yelled racial epithets at Kenneth as he kicked him in the head and back. Kenneth was also brutally attacked by one other male SEIU member and an unidentified woman."

Now who is being rude? This goes way past rude. Had I been present I would have had a tremendous urge to weigh in. Where were the Conservatives in this one?

Janie| 8.28.09 @ 2:11PM

Why do so many posters insist on adding a second "n" to QUIN'S name? I don't get it.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Solo| 8.28.09 @ 2:16PM

From Robert Novak's column:

" Documents concerning Pryor's fund-raising as founder of the Republican Attorneys General Association (RAGA) were leaked to Kennedy's office by a former RAGA secretary who took the documents without permission. Three sources, including one Senate aide, told me that Flug was the Kennedy staffer receiving the purloined material. The attempt to ambush Pryor was ruined when the plan was disclosed in a July 16, 2003, column in the Mobile Register by Quin Hillyer. Kennedy then accused Republicans of leaking confidential information. However, Pryor was one of three appellate nominees who this year was finally confirmed in the "Group of 14" agreement."

There you go, Mr Hillyer.

American conservatives and leftist revolutionaries (as represented by the democrat party) are playing by two different sets of rules.

We can never win by playing paddy-cake with these bastards.

Btw.....Kudos on your good work, there!

gill.Oteen07041776@gmail.com| 8.28.09 @ 2:17PM

Years ago I took a self-defense course. Its black-belt instructor was asked by a lady student what should she do when a slimeball (my word not hers) attempted to rape her. Sensei recommended she make as much loud noise as possible so as to attract attention to the situation. When viewed as an attempt to defend ourselves from the obumoron rape of our country and its hard-working people, the actions which offended the sensibilities of many commentators here can be viewed more sympathetically. My Father-in-law, an American hero, is practically deaf. In his well-earned pride, he refuses to wear a hearing aid. In order to be heard when speaking to him, it is necessary to shout. None are so deaf as those who will not hear, I think Jesus said that. I don’t know if The True Messiah had them in mind, but scream, holler, yell, doesn’t matter; the slimeballs infesting DC refuse to listen.
Gill O’Teen ✝✡
gill.Oteen07041776@gmail.com
Don’t Tread on Me!!

Bydand76| 8.28.09 @ 2:23PM

The time for civility is a ship leaving port. I cannot nor will I stand by and become a knock around conservative any longer.
The time has come for our voices to be raised in one long continous shout of protest! The time has come for actions to speak volumes!
I will not go quietly into the night!

The strength and power of despotism consists wholly in the fear of resistance” Thomas Paine

Pro Libertate!

Daisy| 8.28.09 @ 2:24PM

Dai Alanye: Exactly. Just substitute the Democrat Party for Moran and Dean. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree with Quin on this one.

I don't know why Quin doesn't get it, but at least the vast majority of us Conservatives do. Perhaps it's because Quin lives in a bubble of political pundits and scribes, I don't know; but it doesn't really matter anyway.

I like to see and hear the fury of my fellow Conservatives; it's about d@mn time. We just have to harness this righteous outrage and turn it into action.

We know what we have to do, and Quin knows what has has to do: Both are necessary to take back our country.

TennesseeVolunteer| 8.28.09 @ 2:32PM

Good posts all but when yelling doesn't work anymore, what then?
They have heard yelling, now what action should we take. I suggest and advise we make plans to do a peaceful revolution of changing our representatives, locally, statewide and nationally. Believe me, if the fringe of the liberals see the tide turning, the Rahms and Gibb's will be out there all alone and without a life raft.
My purpose in posting today is to begin to set my sail towards a concrete action that makes it abundantly clear that I, for one, am not going to take their crap anymore. their words mean nothing to me, there will be no common ground unless we can have individual freedom and the pursuit of happiness.
However, I cannot recommend to my family, friends or good posters like yourself that we go from venting and yelling directly to violence.
I look to all of you for other ideas as to how we can further advance our cause besides town halls. The left is devising strategies, it is time for us to get ahead of them. Town halls and public assemblies will be important to help us organize our purpose and direction, i already know what I beleive. Now what is next that we can do to champion our cause. It is clear that none of you are just posters with no intention to take action. Let's help galvanize each other toward specific, galvanized actions that further educate our fellow citizens to secure all of our freedoms. We have been individual Paul Reveres, each yelling that the liberals are coming, the liberals are coming. Now it is incumbent on ourselves to help everyone understand and support the next step towards the uniting of all americans of any political party who love freedom.

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.28.09 @ 2:32PM

Quinn
I just don't think you grasp it yet. We are NOT in a POLITICAL battle in these days!

All of the wonderful thought you have poured into our conciousness (sp?) over time, and for all of the political battles you have won over the years...

Thank you!
BUT!
I personally will not sell my kids and grandkids into slavery, thankyouverymuch.
Bottom line, Quinn, it seems to a lot of Americans that NOW it is down to a choice...yelling a lot and hoping we are heard...or lock and load.

I have personally created a blog as a precursor to our full site. I hope you will read it.
http:judgeroy.wordpress.com

On that blog, you will note that we link directly to american spectator and three other sites that are brilliantly executed. But!

You guys are commentators, sorta' like the true war correspondents during WWII. We are forming the battallions of ground troops to fight the war. Bear with us if our battle cry out of the trenches is not:

"Forgive our rudeness auntie Petunia!"

but rather....."Victory or Death!"

Many Americans feel it is just that bad...right now.

Please play catch up.

Louis Jenkins| 8.28.09 @ 2:52PM

From the New York Post, today's story:

"WASHINGTON -- Rep. Charles Rangel failed to report as much as $1.3 million in outside income -- including up to $1 million for a Harlem building sale -- on financial-disclosure forms he filed between 2002 and 2006, according to newly amended records.

The documents also show the embattled chairman of the Ways and Means Committee -- who is being probed by the House Ethics Committee -- failed to reveal a staggering $3 million in various business transactions over the same period.

This week, Rangel filed drastically revised financial-disclosure forms reflecting new, higher amounts of outside income and numerous additional business deals that had not been reported when the reports were originally filed."

Are we hoarse yet? No small wonder we're mad and rude.

Solo| 8.28.09 @ 2:55PM

By the way...

I find myself today watching the 'mourning faithful" file by that fat murderer's casket at the JFK Library.

I'm almost ashamed to say that I find myself fantasizing that a patriot will bolt from the crowd, tip over his casket-spilling his fat-bloated corpse on the floor- dowsing it with a home-made napalm and lighting it on fire!

Just to let those leftist bastards know that the REAL war has now been joined.

I'm also praying that the good Lord shall deliver me from these hateful thoughts and grant me the peace and strength to abide by my own convictions.

I not only despise the left for what they are doing to this nation, I despise them for what they are doing to the hearts and minds of decent people who seek only to be left alone in peace...and liberty.

Daisy| 8.28.09 @ 3:06PM

Tennessee, bold action is needed--not violence. The 9/12 march on Washington, DC is a good start and we're going to have to ramp up the Tea Party movement. Glenn Beck's program on today (8/28) will be devoted to strategies to take back our country.

Everyone should watch it or find a copy.

Sitting on our hands while mouthing pleasantries ain't going to cut it anymore. You can see where those behaviors got us.

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.28.09 @ 3:13PM

God bless you, Solo.
Peace be unto you...in Jesus'name.
We are gonna win this fight!
We are gonna' turn over the money changers' tables and drive them out of our capitol.

Solo| 8.28.09 @ 3:20PM

Ken (Old Texican)..

Thank you, so much, for your healing words.
I prayed and my prayers were answered.

Thank you, my brother in Christ.

Anthony| 8.28.09 @ 3:28PM

Careful, careful, Solo, under the proposed Rockerfeller/ Snowe legislation, (yes, that Republican useful idiot from Maine) comments about the real war will trigger Obama taking over the Internet. After all, citizens who express their distain for their lying elected leaders, are promoting sedition against their government, hence, creating a cyber emergency that necessitates shutting down the Internet.
"Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose". And folks, being pushed as we are, we've nothing left to lose.

Solo| 8.28.09 @ 3:33PM

Anthony...

The Truth of God's word survived for over 2000 years before the internet began.

That truth shall survive for 2000 times 2000 years after the internet is long gone.

Tim| 8.28.09 @ 3:37PM

I agree with Mr. Hillyer, though I would point out that I have been to unknown hundreds of public meetings and the contentious ones bear no resemblance to the tranquil placidity evoked by the Norman Rockwellish "Town Hall" moniker.

That so many Beltway types-pols and media are getting the vapors over loud, rude people only underscores how out of touch they have become.

They should try a few local school boards or zoning review hearings. That would put some barnacles on their butts.

Anthony| 8.28.09 @ 3:51PM

Not to be flip Solo, but I don't believe that language is in the legislation. In any event, many a politician has attempted to obliterate God's will, and history is replete with the results of their carnage. I, for one, will not be a lamb led to slaughter.

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.28.09 @ 3:52PM

Solo:
We are smarter than these communists...and we have more money than Soros. We OWN this country, or at least we pay the bills.
http:judgeroy.wordpress.com

Please go there and get a smell of our strategy. Our entire website will be up soonest, but for right now, just kick back and smile.
We got a thousand new partners in our first day. Whoah, nellie.

Daisy,
see above. My company, (my day job), enjoys the service of the premier internet marketer in the country. He is a veteran all shot up. His heart is totally in our effort here.
I fully expect a million partners by Christmas...perhaps even two million. At $20 a pop partners can't go very far wrong can they?

I have already gotten Glenn's program ready to tape.
(I call Glenn "hands" after the poor genius on "Boston Legal") Heh!

Solo| 8.28.09 @ 4:07PM

I hear you, Anthony, and I agree..in a corporeal sense.

But...truth is truth. And, once revealed, it is hard to stifle. Unfortunately, the tree of liberty often requires a watering of blood. The determination of oppressors is the reason for this tragic fact.

Let us hope that it is not yet too late for reason to prevail.

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.28.09 @ 4:52PM

Solo
If it comes to rifles in the streets, we shall win.
Done!
Let's see if we can break these wimps with fear of our showing up in front of their offices first.

Racking my pump-gun is too easy!

Who would be in charge when the smoke clears?

Are you willing to spend an hour on the internet or phone each day contacting some of the thousands of tea-party orgs?
write me at kbjudgeroybeano6@gmail.com

Al Adab| 8.28.09 @ 5:11PM

Gill,

Regarding those who will not listen, Grandma had a saying, "Those who do not listen must feel." She usually repeated it while holding her razor strop (remember those?) Sure kept the kids and grandkids in line.

Marc Jeric| 8.28.09 @ 6:02PM

I thought that not in a million years would I agrre with anything that millionaire abortionist Howard Dean said. Then the miracle happened; Dean said that the most important health care reform was TORT REFORM! Loser pays! That would knock out at least one trillion dollars in cost for malpractice insurance and defensive medicine. Dean also said there is no chance for that because trial lawyers give millions to Democrats to stop any talk of that reform. Have you seen those trial lawyers hyenas trolling for "victims" on TV?

FAMINE COMES TO AMERICA| 8.28.09 @ 6:42PM

The End of America
By Sherry Shriner

Hundreds of thousands without electric in the east, barraging snowstorms in the west, and people often ask me where the safest place to live is.

I often wondered that myself but I've seen the picture of the end for America and I'm real hesitant to say or write a thing about it, but I feel led to, so those with ears can see what's ahead and the naysayers can stick their heads back in the sand...I don't care what they do.

As I've said there's much destruction ahead. Natural disasters, man-made disasters, wars, famine, plagues, diseases...the destruction of America so the NWO can rise. It is the last part of their plan and they've already been working on it for years to destroy America. The secret societies who run our government work in cohoots with Lucifer and his plan of a New World Order. President Bush and former president Clinton and the last umpteen presidents have also been aligned with this end goal of destroying America so the NWO could rise. Acting as patriotic Americans these scoundral and scandalous politicians that have dominated Washington DC the past 30 years have all been working on a master blueprint together on building and establishing the NWO. It shouldn't surprise you that the destruction of America itself is the last part of their plan. And they themselves may be in for a big surprise because Yah is going to see to it that America is indeed destroyed. Perhaps not the utter and complete destruction the Satanists had in mind, but that's exactly what's going to happen.

The Satanists who run our government and federal agencies and the unwitting pawns who carry out their plans are all part of the plan to bring America under control of Lucifer himself. The plan is to divide America up into 10 regions, and another calls for the total alignment of all of North America together as one region. Eventually the strife and civil war this causes amongst the patriotic Americans and the coming weather disasters will lead to martial law and the imprisonment and death of millions of Americans and Christians. They will be gathered up and ultimately taken to their final destination of death by incineration and beheadings. The plan for now is that these people will be incinerated and so our government has built underground incineration facilities to haul people to them via trains they have built with shackles in them as human carriers to the incinerators. Many of the coming weather disasters are man-made for the very purpose of causing death and destruction and the implementation of martial law. I think the reason this plan of incineration will eventually be pushed aside and switched to beheadings is because they will need the bodies of the murdered people to eat to survive on. By this time the coming famine will be bad throughout the country and the world...and humans will become food.

This gross abomination of eating the flesh of humans and the slaughter of Yehovah's people will bring the final and complete wrath of Yehovah onto America.

Tens of millions of Americans will be killed and die in the coming destructions and the war to exterminate the Saints of Yehovah.

It won't be the same country that it once was, the Satanists who rule behind the scenes won't be hiding who they are anymore...Obama, George, Hillary, they're all snakes from hell who worship THE SNAKE.

Once the martial law starts here it will never stop, the population extermination program will begin on a broader and more bold scale. They had some practice with New Orleans because there's still thousands of adults missing who were taken off on buses....never to be heard from again and the media blackout on what really goes on continues. And there's not much of a blimp in the media about it if any.

The safest states to be in before the total and complete destruction of America are South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas (center to eastern parts of the states). And western parts of Iowa, Missouri, Arkansas and Oklahoma.

I had a vision and I saw 90% of America being drowned by water, coming in all directions, everywhere. There was only a strip of land left and I believe it's the states I've listed. I'm not 100% sure but that's the closest I can remember from looking at a map of the USA to what I saw.

Everything else is gone. Canada is gone although parts of Alaska are left. Mexico is gone. Paraquay seems to become a safe haven for people who survive the coming devestation. In my dream/vision Paraquay and Brazil were ok.

This dream/vision affected me for days. I didn't even want to write about it but feel compelled to do so. Perhaps because so many have asked me where are the safest places to go to or where should they head to and perhaps that's why Yah showed me what is eventually coming to America. All I know is that it was the very end of "America" and it takes everyone by complete surprise. No one expects it or sees it coming. The Great Lakes dump their water on surrounding states, the Pacific, the Atlantic, almost every state is destroyed but 7.

It just makes me ache.

There will be no warning. The water will come upon people unexpectedly and as they see these huge Tsunami waves coming towards them there will be nothing they can do. These waves will crush everything in their path. And it won't just come from the east but the west and the north. To me it seems like it happens all at once and literally gives meaning to a literal "America being destroyed in one hour." America drowns.

I was shown the end of America. There is still much to happen here as far as misery, suffering, and death before it comes.

Daphne Kenward| 8.28.09 @ 7:41PM

Shame on you, Famine. Your evil fear mongering is unconscionable.

Genesis 15:1 "After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying FEAR NOT, Abram, I am thy shield and thy exceeding great reward."

We have NOTHING to fear for we are showered with God's love. Pray for the Holy Spirit's grace and guidance.

Marcell| 8.28.09 @ 8:26PM

You clowns can't stop us.

keouwo@hotmail.com| 8.28.09 @ 9:09PM

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supra shoes| 8.28.09 @ 9:10PM

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Solo| 8.28.09 @ 9:13PM

Meh! Ignore them Daphine....

They show up every other thread or so claiming that the JOOOOOS are responsible for everything from faking the moon landing to killing Elvis!

LOL! It's actually a little sad.....but a little scary, too. They actually drive the roads with the rest of us!

:)

Patriot| 8.28.09 @ 11:51PM

Marcell, your arrogant stupidity and incompetence have already stopped you. Moron.

Red Phillips| 8.29.09 @ 12:07AM

I generally agree with this article, but Mark Levin IS NOT someone to hold up with regard to civility. He is a loud-mouth ranter and often rude to people who disagree with him. And he has just as much wrath for those who disagree with him who are to his right as he does those who are to his left.

It is clear to me that Levin did not write his book. It is way too nuanced and measured for Levin who has never had a nuanced thought.

William 5| 8.29.09 @ 1:35AM

Complete and utter nonsense.

Those who support the pundits on the right can do nothing but regurgitate that which is said to them nightly through their tellys.

Want proof - just wait and see the responses to this post. Bring it neo-cons, you'll do nothing but call me things I've heard on Rush, Beck, and O'Reilly.

Cliche anyone? Just look at the responses to this post.

The reason you get such disdain from the left, is that you've no ability to think for yourselves. If you're not slapping each other on the back for your folksy conservative wisdom, you're calling someone who doesn't agree with you a Commie.

I don't watch the telly, and I search the web for news. I don't look for someone to tell me what I want to hear.

It's gotta hurt, Quin, you're supposedly a writer and a thinker, and this is the only gig you can get?

I've had great conversations with Jeffrey Lord, but only after cutting through the dumbed down righty rhetoric he has to submit to get published on this site.

How sad...how very sad.

Dannie| 8.29.09 @ 1:44AM

If this web site is so dumbed down, why do you hang around here so much, Willy5? I don't recall sending you an engraved invitation, and you most certainly won't be missed when you leave.

Don't let the door hit 'ya where the good Lord split 'ya.

Bydand76| 8.29.09 @ 5:19AM

William 5,
Wow!...Thats the same thing I would expect from somone like Michael Moore to say. Cliche? Me thinks not! Coincidence? For sure.
The same proverbial tripe you spouted off is the same thing I hear from all of you progressives. Nothing more than a pedantic tantrum in which you claim that we all get our talking points from conservative celebrities.
It never occurs to people such as yourself that maybe, just maybe, the so called pundits get their talking points from us does it? Uh Oh watch out here come some folksy wisdom for you.......

If you dont like being called a communist? Dont act like one. WHOA! What an epiphany!

Trust me sir, I neither seek, nor do I require your approval. I do not need the Left in this country to condescend to me any longer. You cannot tell me how to live my life or what I CHOOSE to do with it. You are not allowed! I will not submit to the authority of mindless, godless,elitist autocrats any longer.
Democrats can quite bluntly "Go To Hell and ROT! Hows that for "righty rhetoric" Bill? I bet you have heard that alot haven't you? Maybe that should tell you something Ding a Ling. (More folksy wisdom right there for ya Billy)

Oh wait! You're going to call me a nazi now aren't you? I Knew It!! You lefties love to call anyone who doesnt agree with you a nazi. (I thought I would explain that joke to you in case you didn't get it.) Since you have to look for stuff you want to hear. Oops, careful Bill. You just stepped in a big pile of steaming hypocrisy there. You might want to clean it off your shoe. Its kinda nasty.

Well Bill you want to pat me on my back for my folksy conservative wisdom now? Better yet! How bout we just call it plain old COMMON SENSE? I will take the back patting after I beat some Lib ass later on.

Go trib a chainsaw you liberal monkey! Your yellow stripe is showing and your nanny is looking for you. Time for you to go to bed Billy boy! Don't forget to turn off Grandma's PC while your at it. We need to save some energy cuz Al Gore needs it for his mansion. Remember???

Pro Libertate!!

2Anglico| 8.29.09 @ 11:21AM

willy-5 bet you can't even define neo-con.

Etiquette Man| 8.29.09 @ 11:28AM

Am I alone in finding Quin, for all of his brilliance, to be rather a scold, more interested in passing moral judgment on others than on advancing unadulterated, high octane conservatism?

Am I also alone in noting that his hardest shots of late seem to be at CONSERVATIVES (Palin and now mad-as-hell American CONSERVATIVES who have taken off the white gloves)?

It's like listening to McCain: "Now, my friendshe, letshe be shivel to the other shide. I am shure that the Preshident reschpects the Conshtitushun. Letsch be reschpectful of other poinsche of view . . ."

Sheesh. What drivel!

Yeah, let's be civil the side that wants to shred the Constitution and considers dissenters to be Nazis and evil-mongers.

Forgive the lapse in "etiquette" from the self-proclaimed "Etiquette Man," but screw that!

I say again: Screw . . . that!

Those people are my enemies.

They are the enemies of my country.

I want them defeated, not appeased or mollified, and I don't care a whit about offending them. OUR TACTICS ARE ARE WORKING, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!! Even the empty-between-the-ears moderates sympathize with the protestors more than with the Demonrats.

So obviously, the right thing for a "conservative" like Quin to do is to write yet ANOTHER column in which he takes a shot at conservatives.

Yeah, that's a great idea.

As for me, I won't insist that those doing the hard work of facing down these thugs (like the "tsk, tsk'ed" CONSERVATIVES to whom Quin disparagingly refers) carry a copy of Emily Post at all times, wear white gloves, obey Roberts Rules of Orders, and fight by Queensbury Rules.

I want to win. There is too much at stake to worry about niceties. While we starching our white gloves, the Obamatons are digging America's grave.

I honor and respect the protestors, and I don't give a rat's hind quarters even if they DO get our of hand from time to time. They are defending the country and the Constitution I love. I won't don a smoking jacket, and join Quin at "The Club" to bemoan those uncouth hicks who are such an embarrassment to "in the know" elitist "conservatives."

This a war--for the future of America.

The libs declared it--against the spirit of our Founding, and IN the spirit of Saul Alinsky (who dedicated "Rules for Radicals" to Satan, yes THAT Satan").

I want to win this war. Does Quin know we're in a political and cultural war? Does he think that wars are won by those wearing white gloves?

Quin should be praising those folks as his brothers and sisters in arms, not "tut-tutting" them as he did Sarah Palin only a few days ago.

(Then again, in Quin's defense, being "civil" and "seeking bipartisan solutions" worked out great in '06 and '08, didn't it? Gosh, it sure did attract all of those famous "moderates" and "conservative democrats," eh?)

This is a WAR. It's not a debate. It's a war. We are fighting against people who deny the very existence of truth, who hate America as currently constituted, who have contempt for the Constitution, and (unbelievable as it is) we are actually WINNING (for once), THANKS to so-called "unruly mobs."

Those who care more about "civility" than winning are part of the same "conservative" fifth column that gave us McCain, and will give us someone like him again, if given a chance. I smell a Krauthammerian fauxcon.

Let's finish the libs off, and stop eating our young.

Let's respect Reagan's 11th Commandant (substituting "conservative" for "republican"): "Thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow conservative."

A final question to one and all: Do you want to WIN, and defend the Constitution, or would you settle for a gilded cage at MSNBC as the "reasonable" conservative?

Respectfully Submitted,

EM

Dave Lincoln| 8.29.09 @ 11:57AM

I'm with you all the way, Etiquette Man! Great post, but comparing the author to John McCain, why that's a lowwwww blow. I imagine he'd rather get called a pussy, but I dunno.

JimP| 8.29.09 @ 12:04PM

Etiquette Man: You are not alone. I too have been thinking Quin is acting exactly like McCain, attacking his own instead of going after the lefties, and being a scold. I don't get 'conservatives' like McCain.... but then again maybe I do. I ask you: Am I the only one who sees many of the inside the beltway 'conservative' pundits as having established a comfortable living/lifestyle traveling with the left elites, and hence these 'conservatives' enjoy the status quo and want to maintain it? They, therefore, try to undermine conservatives like the townhall protestors et al when they see them gaining momentum and being successful. That's my gut reaction so far.

Etiquette Man| 8.29.09 @ 12:14PM

Hi Dave Lincoln,

Thanks for the comment! I'm sick to death of "nuance" and all of this navel-gazing "reasonableness" from those who consider themselves conservative opinion-makers.

(Those regular gigs on "Meet the Press" and "Hardball" really DO help with the book sales, though!!!)

I'm all in favor of being reasonable and respectful of those who are reasonable and respectful.

I'm also of the opinion that Roberts Rules don't work on someone who prefers Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals," like our second Boy President (hat tip to R.E.T.).

This peasant has his torch and pitchfork, and is storming the bloody castle, no matter how the well-dressed fellow shouting orders from the Rolls might happen to opine on the matter.

"Oh, dear, I say! Are you fellow QUITE

After all, who died and made HIM George Washington (the only man I would obey without question)?

On the other hand, maybe I DID go too far with the McCain thing, but the little green man in my head insisted, so . . .

Why would he object to being called a cat, though???

He, he, he . . .

Best,

EM

Etiquette Man| 8.29.09 @ 12:17PM

I just suffered a bout of PREMATURE SUBMISSION (which I understand will NOT be covered by Obama/Kennedycare):

The fragment SHOULD have read: "Oh, dear, I say! Are you fellow QUITE certain that all of that rucus is absolutely necessary?" I remember a political cartoon from the 80's, which showed Ronaldus Magnus in an Army uniform in a muddy foxhole, with a fat, bon-bon-eating woman in the background (named "Europe") mumbling, "Oh, Ronnie! MUST you make so much noise?!"

It loses something in translation . . .

Best,

EM

Etiquette Man| 8.29.09 @ 12:24PM

Hi JimP,

My sincere thanks to you for the comment. It's just so frustrating when our "friends" leave so many daggers in our backs, and then play "What, a DAGGER? No, no, no, that wasn't me. You see, there was a fly on your back and I was trying to get it for you . . ."

There are only two sides to a war, and--sadly--I no longer think that people in the Krauthammerian mold are on our side. They represent themselves, having found a nice little DC niche, as you rightly note.

The libs are as serious and determined as they are loopy and detached. We simply can't play patty-cake with them. If we do, they will win, and the country will lose. It's precisely that serious, as you clearly recognize.

Still waiting for Quin's, "Well, you see, on the third line of paragraph four, I specifically rebut the charge you make about me . . . blah . . . blah . . . blah." He either can't see the forest for the trees, or (as I am beginning to suspect) your observation about the perils of being a DC/Northeastern "conservative" was more accurate than I would like to believe.

Best,

EM

JimP| 8.29.09 @ 1:07PM

EM: Thank you! You are a very funny writer.
Have a great weekend.

JimP

William 5| 8.29.09 @ 2:22PM

Bydand76 - from your post, sir:

"I do not need the Left in this country to condescend to me any longer. You cannot tell me how to live my life or what I CHOOSE to do with it. You are not allowed! I will not submit to the authority of mindless, godless,elitist autocrats any longer."

Well done, you just reiterated my point. I heard Glenn Beck start last night's show with almost this same rant. Yes indeed, I even tune in to them every now and then.

Did you order the transcript?

Ken (Old Texican| 8.29.09 @ 3:10PM

Willy 5
Surely they don't pay you more than minimum wage to post so childishly do they?

ClashWho| 8.29.09 @ 4:12PM

I agree with you, Quin, but South Park's style of take-no-prisoners, equal opportunity offensiveness is free speech at its best. They lambast everyone. No one is safe. And they're damn funny while they do it. More power to them.

William 5| 8.29.09 @ 4:18PM

Merely proving a point Old Texican, merely proving a point.

As my original post stated - can you have a discussion without regurgitating the righty mouthpieces?

Bydand76 could not.

I'll give you credit for originality, none of the mouth pieces are talking about taking up arms.

By the way, I can't think of anything more childish than your type of thinking "well if you don't agree with me I'll get my gun".

LynnRockets| 8.29.09 @ 4:24PM

Only a pussy would use the word pussy on this site. It shows that you are immature and insecure about your manhood. Are you a compulsive toe sucker, too?

Grow up, little boy.

Josie| 8.29.09 @ 4:27PM

Willy5 is an amusing stereotype of the typical liberal. Clown makes me laugh.

William 5| 8.29.09 @ 4:49PM

Melvin's on it...2nd post on this article.

Josie, not surprisingly, you can't quite grasp my point.

If the righty pundits had your best interests in mind, they'd have had you marching in the streets the moment Bush started the Wall Street bailout.

I'm actually impressed by the hubaloo the righties have generated against health care. However, I might actually think they are more than entertainers if they had you all in an uproar before each taxpayer (as the calcs seem to point) was on the hook for an average of $12K for the bailout.

Bush started it, Obama continued it, and ya'll are fired up over what 'might' happen with health care. Well, the bailout already happened. It seems to me the anger is about 12 months too late.

Dave Lincoln| 8.29.09 @ 8:48PM

"
LynnRockets| 8.29.09 @ 4:24PM

Only a pussy would use the word pussy on this site. It shows that you are immature and insecure about your manhood. Are you a compulsive toe sucker, too?

Grow up, little boy."

Ohhh, here we go again. I was referring to a previous post, maybe 2 weeks back. Lay off, Lynn and go back to your song lyrics. They are very creative - wrong but creative nonetheless.

Are you aka, Michelle?

Liberal Reader| 8.29.09 @ 9:07PM

A single payer health care system -- Medicare for all -- is the right and just thing to do.

Seeing a doctor should not be a privilege of people that have enough money.

There is absolutely NO reason why medical services should not be free.

The United States is the wealthiest country on earth. By 2010, we will have spent two trillion dollars fighting a war of choice in Iraq: half that could have funded the greatest free medical system on earth in this country for 10 years.

While conservatives generally respond to calls for single payer with half-truths about difficulties in Canada or elsewhere, they never consider the possibility that our ingenuity and great wealth might simply give us the BEST medical system in the world.

As of now, we are woefully behind all other wealthy democracies in Europe, as well as many smaller, less wealthy countries.

This year, 1,000,000 people will declare bankruptcy because of medical costs. That is a disaster.

Public education, including 4 years in college, ought to be free. Medicine ought to be free as well.

Dave Lincoln| 8.29.09 @ 9:28PM

Liberal Reader, you are entitled to your opinion, of course. I just wish you would use a different handle, as "liberal" used to be associated with someone who was pro liberty. All that you would like for this country is the complete opposite of liberty. Liberty means individuals make their own decisions on whether they will see a doctor, what their children will learn, what they will spend their money on, etc.

What you believe is called "statism". It is the belief that the governments should be relied on to take care of their subjects, much like a nanny would take care of a group of children. You are league with Joseph Stalin and Chairman Mao.

You should just admit that and change your handle to "Statist Reader". That is, unless "Liberal Reader" is your real name, in which case I suggest getting down to the courthouse on Monday morning and changing it.

You sicken me, as I know you are not the only fool that thinks your way.

Osamas Pajamas| 8.29.09 @ 11:30PM

I take Sam Adams' side, as he stirred-up the folks to attack and throw out the British. His language was inflammatory and illegal under the Britush colonial governments --- as indeed the First American Revolution was illegal.

Are we to suppose that the Second American Revolution --- to restore the Constitution and redeclare our independence --- will quietly observe the rights of those who rule us by force and by fraud --- and the rights of the illegitimate benficiaries of these rulers?

And who supposes that this Second American Revolution can be anything other than illegal? And --- so what?!

If illegality was OK for Sam Adams and Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine and a whole host of "right-wing extremists," then who am I to denigrate their illegal contribution to the founding of that now formerly Free Republic --- the United States of America?

Etiquette Man| 8.29.09 @ 11:38PM

Hi Dave Lincoln,

Goldwater was reportedly angered by the use of "liberal" as a self-description of his foes. "THEY'RE not liberals; I'M a liberal."

In the sense of "libertas" to which you allude, he was quite right. In that same sense, as a hard-right conservative, I am a classical liberal.

Funny how meanings change, but truth does not.

Like a virus, "progressives" find something sound and healthy, infect it, gradually take it over, and ultimately destroy the host. It takes decades to complete the process, but we see the end result--as if in a lab experiment--most clearly in Ka-lee-for-nee-a, presided over by ueber-RINO Arnold the Wimptastic.

Academia, among many other institutions, is also infected and has become a host for liberalism, but still has enough life in it for a few more decades.

After that, I really don't know.

Best,

EM

Not Quin (1 of 2)| 8.29.09 @ 11:42PM

"Rabble Rouser Threatens Liberty"

By Not-Quin Hilyer

Lovers of freedom and liberty have yet another obstacle to overcome. It is not enough that we must contend with the British and their dragoons; we must now face down a threat from our own ranks: Samuel Adams.

While we must admire and respect the sentiments of this misguided Patriot, his manner of expression will surely alienate and anger more than invigorate and inspire . . .

Not Quin (2 of 2) (aka "EM")| 8.29.09 @ 11:52PM

(Join me in the second and final chapter of the parallel universe in which our Founder thought and acted like a certain American Spectator columnist . . .)

Etiquette Man
******************************

"Queen Announces New Regent"

by Not-Quin Hilyer

Her Royal Majesty Queen Elizabeth, Defender of the Americas, today announced that Prince Harry will be appointed next month as Regent for North America.

The young and much-admired Prince will take Liberty Hall, in the colonial capital of Philadelphia, as his headquarters, a most appropriate decision--observers say--given the care and kindness shown by Great Britain to her colonies in the Americas for nearly half a millenium.

With the exception of still-separatist Quebec, the northern department, notably Ontario and Newfoundland, greeted the announcement with public celebrations. The southern department was only slightly less circumspect, with joyous crowds shutting down Times Square, Fanueil Hall, and port city of Charleston.

A noise was heard at the grave of executed and disgraced rebel leader, George Washington, which sounded vaguely like someone turning over in his grave . . .

Lynn| 8.30.09 @ 3:04AM

Dave, immature and touchy, too. lol

Who is Michelle? Don't make me add paranoia to my list!

Josie| 8.30.09 @ 4:54AM

Free Willy 5 pence! Don't put on airs, libtard. It's not tough to understand your canned canards, it's just amusing to read your hackneyed boilerplate about Conservatives.

Nothing new under the sun about you, Bozo--fascist liberal clowns like you are a dime (overpriced) a dozen.

Now go play on the freeway, or better yet; drive off a bridge like your hero, Teddy 'swimmer' Kennedy.

Dave Lincoln| 8.30.09 @ 7:35AM

Lynn| 8.30.09 @ 3:04AM

Dave, immature and touchy, too. lol

piss off, bitch.

Dave Lincoln| 8.30.09 @ 7:40AM

O. Pajamas:

Great post. I tried to put it like this to Quinn when he wrote a wimpy post last week some time. I don't think he understood.

As I wrote (way, way) above, if his point here is: "Don't go to a meeting without letting the guy speak.", well, I can agree with that. However, hell-raising is going to have to happen on our side, as the other side does not play by Robert's Rules of Order or anything close.

Your words about our 1st revolution are right on. As I had said, the guys doing the real Boston Tea Party did not worry about tickets for littering the harbor or permits to be there or about compensation for the tea. They didn't even worry about being helaciously un-PC by dressing as Indians (at least as history tells it). Most of what you do to fight the socialism that is being imposed will be illegal, just by definition.

JimP| 8.30.09 @ 9:36AM

Not Quin: question to you.

Is it true that GW was tried and then executed because he was first and foremost 'ROOD', 'very ROOOD'? I can understand the allegation/argument because leading a rebel army is by its very nature 'ROOD', is it not? ROODness is a malum in se crime in civilized countries. Only in the U.S., with our cowboy Red State mentality, is ROODness still tolerated at all. Also, isn't 'ROODness' the lost Commandment? "Thou shalt not be ROOD!" Inquiring minds want to know.

Not Quin/Etiquette Man| 8.30.09 @ 9:53AM

Hi JimP,

In the parallel universe in which Quin Hilyer's "civil" approach to fighting tyranny and defending one's liberty is followed, George Washington was arrested outside the hall in which he would later (in OUR universe) preside over the Constitutional Convention.

He, Ben Franklin, and Tom Paine were strung up by the Lobsterbacks from the empty carillon that had previously housed the Liberty Bell, which had itself already been melted down to make British and Hessian muskets.

In this parallel universe, Prince Harry currently rules over us from that same chamber, as Queen Elizabeth's Viceroy for the Americas.

It's a sad place, that world, even sadder than our own under His Serene Majesty, the Lord Barack Obama.

Suffice it to say that I'm glad that Quin's sentiments did not carry the day when my New England forebears took up arms against the tyranny of King George. If there had been a pundit class back then, we'd still be sipping Earl Grey at 4:30 daily, with our pinkies extended.

Another point about "civility." Until The Most Merciful Annointed One assumed office, the Brits were our closest allies.

But we had to beat them in TWO wars first.

Wonder how it would have gone if we'd been "civil" from 1773 to 1783???

Hmm . . .

Best,

NQ/EM

JimP| 8.30.09 @ 10:02AM

LOL. My cyberspace internet connection went haywire a minute ago and a QRL from the parallel universe popped up for 'The Royal History of the American Colonies'. On this site there was a quote from Patrick Henry. It read as follows:

"Is liberty so sweet or independence so dear as to be purchased at the cost of ROODness or lack of etiquette? Forbid it Almighty, God!"

I feel like Captain Kirk in that old StarTrek episode.

Live long and prosper EM/NQ

JimP

Etiquette Man| 8.30.09 @ 10:07AM

Oh, and yes, JimP, George Washington was--in effect--turned in for being "ROOD."

The Association for Comity Over Reactionary Nothingheads (ACORN), a loyalist/Tory group, turned him in for not drinking tea with his pinkie properly extended--most uncouth.

And, um, "insurrection" and "treason," of course.

It was probably the last two that got him hanged.

It is SOOO hard to stand up to liberty hating bullies with one's pinkie extend, though, doncha know.

But we MUST try.

If a single voice is raised in anger at ANY townhall meeting, the liberals win, so why don't we all just eat our soma, sink into our sofas and watch "Dancing With the Stars"?

The "conservative" punditocracy may prove to be our greatest obstacle. They want to be in control, and this time they're not. They hate that. I loved it when politicians were denied the opportunity to speak at some Tea Parties. Great!!! Let me listen to us for a change.

Same for tut-tutting "conservative" pundits like Quin.

Best,

EM

Etiquette Man| 8.30.09 @ 10:10AM

JimP,

Thanks for the amusing post! We ARE living in a parallel universe, or so it seems sometimes.

Perhaps in this parallel universe, Garrison Keillor is a conservative, so, "Be well, do good work, and keep in touch."

Best,

EM

Etiquette Man| 8.30.09 @ 10:12AM

CORRECTION for a stupid typo on my part.

"Let me listen to us for a change."

should have been

"Let them listen to us for a change."

Not PREMATURE SUBMISSION this time, but rather a plain old BRAIN FART.

Neither affliction will be covered by Kennedycare, sadly.

bluecollarbytes| 8.30.09 @ 10:23AM

Not having attented any of these meetings, but having watched numerous clips, there does seem to be a problem. It's one thing to forcefully confront politicians who refuse to provide honesty in answers. It becomes like Code Pink when audience members are simply trying to shut it down. Some is justified, like when an AARP employee starts off a meeting with false premises, such as "we All agree" ....when we don't. Of course the audience opposition is instaneous and spontaneous , because the Health Scare, govt takeovers, wall street bailouts, stimuless boondoggles, etc. have piled up so fast and furious that folks realize they speak up now or we end up living in ObamaLand.

Republicans and conservatives are generally the 'civilized' factions compared to the long-term take-no-prisoners Democrat Party of the last 35 years. While there's a crucial need for more passion of conservative belief, it's a mistake to use some of the more childish tactics far-left wingers use.

There will be no media approval of citizen-involvement as there was during the Sheehan glory days,. If these townhalls are to succeed in making folks Think about what they're being pressured into handing over to Govt, there must be Confrontation of questions to answers, or non-answers, but there must be an exchange of ideas, not a shut down which might satisfy some primal instincts but fail at forming the battle lines.

Sean| 8.30.09 @ 10:30AM

Luckily for libs conservatives aren't as rude as our forefathers. Our forefathers would have just rode them out of town on a rail after tar and feathering them.

Richard Baker| 8.30.09 @ 10:42AM

Tyranny deserves disrespect.

JimP| 8.30.09 @ 10:46AM

BlueCollarBytes:

Your are not seeing the entire town hall meetings. You are seeing only the segments that involve the loud more raucous behavior. These clips make great tv and boost ratings. Don't be manipulated. Even FOX does this. Don't take an instance of some behavior and project it onto all anti Obamacare folks and all town halls, because the tv clips are NOT reflective of all behavior everywhere. You seem to be projecting. Respectfully, I therefore suspect ,you are coming to the mistaken conclusion that anti Obamacare folks are shutting down the exchange of ideas. This is NOT happening. Quin's interpretation of the Reston TH is not reflective of the actual events. Read Jim Geraghty's column at National Review for another perspective. Geraghty was actually in attendance at the Reston TH. Quin, as best as I can tell was not in attendance.

Best regards,

Ken Pitts| 8.30.09 @ 10:48AM

The reason that these protesters are so rowdy and rude is precisely because they are NOT organized by scummy Democrat community organizers. I.e., they have no handlers. I can't help but love them for their spontaneous and much justified anger, and I think we need to let them vent a bit, after which we could send in, well, a few of our own community organizers (has any one ever seen a conservative one we could hire?) to help them understand how to do this a little more effectively. Oops, I forgot! That's exactly what the left does, shouts down everyone, is proud of it, brags about it, and then complains that conservatives are manipulating everything on the planet that seems to be bad. Nevertheless, it would be nice is we screamed for awhile to shake up screechy lefties like Howard Dean (the expression on his face was priceless) and then allowed everyone to listen and ask rational questions for a bit sort of like Jefferson might have.

Liberal Reader| 8.30.09 @ 11:26AM

"Statism" is just a hyperbolic accusation people throw at their political opponets.

Liberalism IS concerned primarily with liberty. However, it does NOT construe liberty as ONLY concerned with individual property rights.

Liberalism -- unlike socialism -- is also NOT primarily concerned with material equality.

I think the distinction between liberalism and the reactionary right and the socialistic left understandably confuses people -- especially those who would love to imagine that the political universe has two options: Goldwater's America or Stalin's Russia.

Obviously, things are a little more complicated than that -- a state of affairs that vexes and frightens the reactionary.

AT any rate: liberalism should be defined as a political idealism that seeks to INCREASE the political and economic autonomy of the people.

Liberalism saw, in the 50s, that blacks were being denied the vote in the south. It sought to increase the political autonomy of people by civil rights laws (joined in, as many of you will note, by many Republicans and fought against by many Democrats).

But liberalism does NOT stop there. The legacy of slavery and one hundred years of apartheid segregation left an uneven playing field; subsequent civil rights laws, fought AGAINST by Republicans almost without exception, have sought to redress those grievances, NOT to establish material equality, but to provide the social and economic grounds for equality of opportunity.

Free medical care -- for which I ardently hope for you and your family and mine -- is another such measure: it INCREASES liberty because it provides the material conditions in which everyone can flourish to the best of his ability. Not everyone, obviously, will be Bill Gates, Stevie Wonder, Ronald Reagan, or Michael Jordan: life is anything but fair. However, everyone will have the ability to see a doctor if he or she gets sick.

DO you have a cousin, a brother, a child who is lazy, irresponsible, given over to vice or addiction? Can he not hold down a job? Does he bounce in and out of jail for not paying child support?

I suspect many of us have -- or are -- such a person in our families: should such a person not be able to have adequate medical care?

Why on earth would we deny the worst ne'er do well the ability to see a doctor?

Medical care and education should be free.

Richard Baker| 8.30.09 @ 11:35AM

Liberal Reader:
If you were speaking of classical liberal thought that would be one thing. However, this country was founded upon the classic liberal idea of Liberty and Freedom by the most profound political thinkers of all time. The "Left" today seem more in tune with Marx, Engels, Lenin, and all the other disgruntled totalitarians in history. Have we made mistakes? Of course. State control of anything destroys initiative and resourcefulness as sure as the sun rises. The history of the failure of these ideas is clear and people in America are NOT confused as to which is which.

JimP| 8.30.09 @ 11:40AM

Liberal Reader:

After reading your last post, I see that you and many of us on the political right share a common value- "to INCREASE the political and economic autonomy of the people. "

Speaking purely from an economics point of view, there is no such thing as 'free' medical care, education or anything else. I therefore assume that you do not understand this fundamental principle. Please explain how we can have free medical care, education or free anything. Thanks in advance for your reply.

JimP

Dave Lincoln| 8.30.09 @ 11:51AM

"I suspect many of us have -- or are -- such a person in our families: should such a person not be able to have adequate medical care?" No, not free, not if you want said person to become responsible. Why doesn't he at least deserve free meals too, eh? How about free room and board? Aren't those rights?

If you want the Fed. Gov't to treat Americans like kids, you will not have responsible citizens. Someone who is not responsible is also not free, as strings are attached to and "free" stuff from the taxpaying public (via the government).

To say that taxpayer-supported and government-controlled health care makes the people more free shows a high degree of delusion on your part, S.R.

JimP| 8.30.09 @ 12:29PM

Dave Lincoln: excellent point. Adequate medical care already exists in the U.S. (as I'm sure you already know) via Medicaid, SCHIP, Medicare, and free clinics. Everyone knows this. It is a myth that we need healthcare 'reform' to cover the uncovered. HE!!, the damn* illegal aliens get 'free' medical coverage in this country via Medicaid. Lefties, like Liberal Reader, are disengenuous to say the least. Why aren't our 'conservative' pundits shouting this at the top of their lungs in every outlet available? (That's a rhetorical question.)

Liberal Reader| 8.30.09 @ 12:30PM

Dave --

Your argument, I admit, is very difficult to dispute. If we provide free medical care even to the "least" among us, why should other necessities such as shelter and food not be free?

Part of the answer is that even the "losers" in our society -- those who through dumb luck or vice or lack of responsibility cannot provide well for themselves -- can generally manage food and shelter as they transact their clumsy negotiations with the market.

Food has increased in price like everything else, but technology has generally made food cheaper and more plentiful, not more expensive. Technology has made medical care more effective but much, much more expensive.

Charity and modest social programs generally feed and house those who cannot feed and house themselves (although I think we could do a little better).

A good free market conservative may respond: the incredible wealth of America allows such generosity, and that wealth depends upon a free market system. Toy with it too much, and it's fantastic wealth producing power will be diminished.

Fair enough. It's probably true.

But I circle back to the beginning: medical care is more like education than it is like shelter or food.

Medical care, like education, requires the maintanence of complicated institutions. Education, going back to Pythagoras, has always been the ultimate instance of wealth redistrubition. It has been and never could be a free market endeavour. (All the founders agree on this, like their Enlightenment brethren in Europe.)

High quality health care should be free for the same reason high quality education should be free. (I'm talking philosophically now; let's for the moment set aside whether we think public education in America is high quality: the topic is extremely complicated in its own right.)

Liberal Reader| 8.30.09 @ 12:37PM

High quality health care should be free for the same reasons high quality education should be free:

1. Both are necessary for people to have the opportunity to achieve and flourish.

2. Both must be passed from one generation to the next. (That is, both are a part of what we might call cultural tradition.) Both are a form of nurture that allows people to develop into strong, independent adults who can assume the responsibility of adulthood.

3. Interestingly, both medicine and education ought properly to be viewed as arts: they are offer ends in themselves. A doctor treats his patient not because he is hired to do so, or because he is employed by a hospital, but because doctors treat patients: their obligations surpass any market-bound obligations or contracts. So too with education: a teacher's relationship with his students is pre-capitalist: the ethical obligations transcend employment with a university or school. Market forces, while they influence and affect the sphere of education, are generally not determinate: it should be the same for the medical sphere.

Liberal Reader| 8.30.09 @ 2:09PM

My last post gets a little soupy, I admit, because I haven't yet quite worked out the idea: however, I do think it's the case that the analogy between medicine and education is better than the analogy between -- say -- medicine and house painters, or between medical care and other necessities like food.

It is my contention that we have the wealth and organizational skills and technology to make the medical system like a very well funded public library.

Go to your public library; ask for help finding a book; check out the b0ok. THAT's what going to the doctor should be like. I insist that that is what it COULD be like, if we viewed all citizens as inherently worth this basic decency.

I yield the balance of my time to the honorable gentlemen from "real America."

Sass A Frass| 8.30.09 @ 4:30PM

Lynn is lucky that Dave Lincoln didn't call her a pussy. Thank heavens for small favors.

NoHugo| 8.30.09 @ 4:33PM

LibReader/J, you're a liberal--of course you're soupy. Unfortunately for you; you're turd soup, chunky style.

JimP| 8.30.09 @ 4:41PM

Re Liberal Reader: LOL

Good Heavens, what a longwinded buffoon. I haven’t heard so much platitudinous rambling BS since Obama’s last speech.

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.30.09 @ 5:20PM

DUH Liberal!

You gonna' point a gun at doctors' heads and demand they work 90 hour weeks to get your healthcare?
NO BULLCRAP NOW..........

Are you suggesting that we enslave doctors...or give them a 32 hour work week?

Just curious dimsh*t!

Patriot| 8.30.09 @ 6:38PM

Of course, LibReader is 'suggesting' that Doctors work 90 hour weeks for minimum pay. Now.

When Obama consolidates more power, Der Fuhrer/LibReader will 'demand' that all of us peasants slave for the state!

Liberal Reader| 8.30.09 @ 7:03PM

Who said anything about a 90 hour work week?

In France, which delivers superior medical care at half the cost, doctors would riot in the streets if they were asked to work more than 32 hours a week.

Certainly, however, this country needs to educate more doctors and nurses. There needs to be more funding for such education.

JimP| 8.30.09 @ 7:35PM

LOL.... again. Liberal Reader delivers more laughs than the Blue Collar Comedy Tour. In France healthcare is paid for via heavy taxation (therefore not free) and the French pay indirectly with a stagnant economy from their heavy taxes. The French also have to buy supplemental health insurance coverage from private health insurance companies to pay for the 'good stuff' when it comes to healthcare. Which is going full circle in the healthcare debate. Why go with socialized medicine if you are just going to have to buy private health insurance to get coverage that you REALLY need? If you have a boo-boo Medicaid, SCHIP, and free clinics already have EVERYBODY covered.

It used to be Sweden that the lefties pointed to as 'free ' healthcare nirvana. Then people investigated and the lefties switched to the UK... until people investigated... and then it was Canada... until people investigated. Now it's France? Ha! 'Free' healthcare is an uban legend of the left. "Hey such and such country as free healthcare and it's world class. I know it's true. My cousing told me so."

Dave Lincoln| 8.30.09 @ 8:29PM

S.R., I'm gonna try to mellow out here. Look, I figure you are a young guy - not that there's anything wrong with that. I assume that because I don't know how else you could miss a major premise that is wrong in all of your wild-eyed ideas of how "things" should be run.

S.R., your wrong premise is the one that says doctors, teachers, etc. should just plain enjoy doing what they're doing and now worry about the money. Don't get me wrong, here, many doctors and teachers would just love to be able to practice their profession without the paperwork/bureaucracy that come with all the government (and union, in the case of teachers) that has become 1/2 of their job. This is another subject, the bureaucracy.

A cardiologist who has spent 4 years in college (no pay, costs money), 4 years in medical school (no pay costs a lot of money), 3 years residency (pay about 1/10 of community organizer pay, maybe 30 K$), and 4 - 5 years of cardiology residency (maybe a little more pay than residency) may want some financial reward for this spent period of his life when he could have been partying like a Kennedy. Do you think that is wrong? If the pay is not there, who is going to go through all that, S.R? Oh, maybe the gov't program of yours will cut 3-4 years off of that schooling/training. They may have some affirmative action deal to get some diversity in there, too. Well, those aren't the guys I want working on me. All that time and work is necessary.

With teachers it's a slightly different story. Due to the stranglehold of the NEA, a teacher who does just and outstanding job (because, as you say, all he should want to do is impart knowledge to the kids, a great concept) will not get any extra financial reward over a real slacker who could not care less whether any of the kids learn anything.
So, you say, the 1st guy, or gal, should be happy anyway. It just doesn't work like that, S.R. Put yourself in that position. You are doing your best, working your butt off, and having a good time doing it, yet you get no recognition. Due to the union, everyone is the same (unless they molested a few kids, then they get taken off the seniority list for a while).

.... continued.....

Dave Lincoln| 8.30.09 @ 8:42PM

... continued .....

These ideas are not new, S.R. You could read some Adam Smith. I was gonna quote him, but I think I'd mess it up. He stated what will become obvious to you at some point: It is individuals' self-interest that drives the markets and makes a flourishing economy, not the goodness of their hearts.

This does not mean that people don't want to do a good job at whatever their chosen occupation is. I think most people do. However, most of our economy would not even be there if it weren't for people wanting to make a decent living. In the long run, people don't do stupid things with their own money, unless they are backed up by the government (bailed-out, i.e. made to be not responsible).

Now, everyone says our current and serious financial mess is due to "Greed!" Greed, greed, greed. Bull, the government distortion of the housing markets had everything to do with it. Get government out and banks will not make stupid loans to people that they know won't pay. Bankers aren't stupid - they don't want to go broke. This was a government-caused disaster that will not go away anytime soon.

Our Fedzilla has been involved in health care since medicare started, and that has distorted the health-care industries pricing. I would never say we have a free-market in health-care now, S.R., but that is precisely why I don't want more government involvement.

Go talk to a teacher and a doctor, S.R. Find out what they think - don't take my word for it. Get out in the world and keep your eyes open. I hope you will see the way things work in terms of human nature after a while. You will not get that chance if we become socialist in short order though. All you will be allowed to read will be the big-character posters exhorting you to do your best for the motherland, not to litter, to eat your vegatables (because meat is scarce), and not to even think about Adam Smith, unless you want Dear Leader to have a "conversation" with you and your bare ass.

Etiquette Man| 8.30.09 @ 8:49PM

JimP wrote:

"It used to be Sweden that the lefties pointed to as 'free ' healthcare nirvana. Then people investigated and the lefties switched to the UK... until people investigated... and then it was Canada... until people investigated. Now it's France? Ha! 'Free' healthcare is an uban legend of the left."

This is such an excellent and well-presented point that it bears repeating.

Because the leftist agenda is not rational or logically consistent (e.g. we can get better health care that covers all Americans for less money than our current system costs--huh???), whenever they are caught in one of their serial inconsistencies and/or fabrications, they have to change the subject. That's why I liked JimP's formulation so much. It's exactly correct.

Sweden's da bomb, medically speaking--nope it's the UK--oh, yes, there ARE problems there, but check out Canada--oh, well, everyone knows that Canada is all fouled up--but the glorious French have finally figured it out . . .

I just wonder where they're going to "go" next. Cuba??? Don't count it out.

The left does not decide what to do by first identifying problems and THEN coming up with solutions.

The left, rather, attempts to shoehorn often misidentified non-problems (like the non-problem under discussion) into its one-size-fits-all solution--viz. "let the government run it."

(As an aside, it is ironic that so many leftists are atheists, since the belief that the government can run 1/6 or 1/7 of our economy requires more faith than any religion. At least it does for anyone who has ever been to the DMV.)

Nice post, JimP, and from many others as well. I've been enjoying "lurking" for a while.

Etiquette Man| 8.30.09 @ 9:04PM

Bravo, Dave Lincoln. Well-said!

The fundamental flaw in Marxism, and hence in all of the liberty-destroying policies currently followed by American "liberals" (Mark Levin's "statist" is a better and more accurate term) is that eventually capitalism will become so efficient that goods will become free.

Yes, that's right. Marx believed so strongly in the power of capitalism, that eventually it would produce goods for free.

(There's a double irony there. First--that the genius of the left believed that ANYTHING could EVER be produced at NO cost, and second that he had such a high opinion of capitalism. But I digest . . . urrpp . . .)

That's the source of the left's fantasy belief--recently exemplified here by "Liberal Reader"--that goods and services can actually be free.

The fact that making anything "free" for Person A requires depriving Person B of his time (liberty) or property without compensation either does not occur to the liberal, or--if it does--is regarded as an act of virtue, Robin Hood style.

The "good" liberals are intellectual and/or moral naifs; they just haven't thought it through. There is hope for such people. I used to be one of them, as I imagine many of us once were. Such people can be reached, although not all actually are; it is worth extending courtesy to such people. They are not wicked--they just haven't thought it through, and there is hope for them.

The "bad" liberals, like our Dear Leader, HAVE thought it through, and think that robbing from "the rich" (i.e. "everyone") to give to the "poor" (i.e. "themselves" and their constituents) is just peachy. They cannot be educated. There is no hope for them. They must be defeated. Courtesy and civility are not only wasted on them; courtesy and civility are in fact distinctly counter-productive, as they are (rightly) interpreted by the other side as signs of weakness and irresolution.

Back to the article, then, this is why I have objected so strongly to the underlying presumption of Quin's recent columns, viz. that the "conservative" elites (like Quin) have to get the rabble under control, lest we discredit conservatism. It's like telling a soldier on the battlefield to stop shooting at the enemy, lest we antagonize them.

Too late for that.

The "conservative" punditry appears to be suffering from Stockholm Syndrome--been living in the belly of the DC beast too long, they have.

Cordially,

EM

Dave Lincoln| 8.30.09 @ 9:13PM

Yep, EM, regarding your last paragraph. I think a lot of it is just simple a__-kissing and bucking for a bigger job. It's very unprincipled. Quinn has told of his stories of standing up (to Kennedy even) for conservative causes, and I believe it. However, people can become soft and may leave their basic principles behind when it's a matter of money and prestige.

I don't say that in particular regarding Quinn. Dick Morris is an example, though. How can he have been Clinton's right hand man (or did he use his left hand) and then suddenly just switch his politics around? It's like lawyers who are arguing vehemently in court and then shake hands outside and go get lunch together. I just can't be like that.

It takes a tough guy to stick to principles even though he will then not be accepted by the "in" crowd. Examples of these tough guys are Pat Buchanan and Ronald Reagan.

There are more, including this guy:

http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/56171917.html

(Las Vegas Review Journal)

Liberal Reader| 8.30.09 @ 9:45PM

What about the "free" market?

Is it truly free?

pete the mediocre| 8.30.09 @ 10:40PM

I certainly hope that liberal reader is not a high school economics teacher. "Free health care my" aching butt. Nothing is free in this world except God's grace.

While we're at it let's add to the list: How about free cars and fuel so we can get to work (or the unemployment office)? Why not free utilities? Free food has been mentioned and I think that's a smashing idea! Come to think of it, aren't all profits obscene? Why doesn't the government just tax us at 100% and then dole it back out as they see fit? It's hard to think of anything better than trusting in the benevolence of government politicians and bureaucrats.

Dave Lincoln| 8.30.09 @ 11:14PM

Oh, heck yeah, Pete, I agree. I was figuring S.R. was younger than that even. I hope he has time to learn.

Stay on this website, S.R. If you are not careful you may learn something.

Michelle| 8.31.09 @ 2:18AM

Good boy, Dave; I knew you could do it.

It's all about respect, all of the time. ;p

Dave Lincoln| 8.31.09 @ 2:35AM

Thanks Michelle!

Yes, 24 hours (but not in a row),

Michelle| 8.31.09 @ 3:30AM

ALL IN A ROW, Snotboy. Or it doesn't count.

Go to sleep.

Dave Lincoln| 8.31.09 @ 3:35AM

It's daytime here, Michelle. Get with the program (TIME ZONES - check out wikapedia - I'm sure they could explain it to you.)

Michelle| 8.31.09 @ 3:38AM

I didn't know HELL had a time zone.

Say hi to Teddy for me.

Dave Lincoln| 8.31.09 @ 3:52AM

Well, I guess you got the 10-20 on Kennedy, but you have no idea where I am. I don't need another stalker.

You need a husband to tell you when to STFU.

Michelle| 8.31.09 @ 4:01AM

In your dreams, Davey Boy. As if.

Just watch your language and we can call it squares. Ha ha.

Dave Lincoln| 8.31.09 @ 4:05AM

Michelle, did some one employ you to watch all of the language on this web site? I don't know why they could not have used software, or a coupla illegal aliens, or software written by a coupla illegal aliens?

How much are they paying you? I'll pay you double that to leave me the fuck alone.

Joe| 8.31.09 @ 1:41PM

Quinn, I understand your point. However, when they are just there to lie to us and push there agenda for photo opts. What are we to do to show our displeasure. They need to know we mean business.

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