The American Spectator : Health Care Orthodoxy

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Health Care Orthodoxy

By Jay D. Homnick on 8.24.09 @ 6:07AM

A Jewish response to Obama’s moral imperative, Part 1.

Readers expect me to offer intelligence guided by experience, in Rex Stout’s phrase, tempered by general knowledge, informed by moral tradition. My Biblical and Talmudic scholarship serves as reference material, but it is not my job to deliver a precise version of Jewish law and philosophy on specific concrete cases. But today is an exception. Today the President of the United States has appealed to religious thinkers everywhere to enlist in his moral crusade for health care reform. This obligates me to formulate a response grounded in explicit Jewish thought. Here goes.

In considering the President’s proposals, his stated goals, his strategies and his representations throughout this process, I believe the following elements tend toward a comprehensive determination.

1) The Talmud asserts that a victim of a tort has a legal right to refuse free medical treatment and demand the doctor be paid. If a man assaults me, he must pay my doctor bills. If a doctor volunteers to treat me for free, I may demand that he receive full payment, on the principle that the profit motive produces a higher quality of care. The phrase is coined (Bava Kamma 85a): “The doctor who heals for nothing is worth his price.”

Thus, there is a bias in favor of compensating doctors well. Observation bears this out, as better doctors demand higher prices and produce better work. The notion that stripping the compensation will not be deleterious to the work is wrong-headed.

2) The Talmud, in the same context, asserts that a doctor who is not local and accountable will also be less effective. If the assaulter offers to bring in a good doctor from out of town, the victim may demand the local doctor instead, on the principle that having the patient nearby as an inescapable presence leads the doctor to maintain a higher degree of vigilance. Here another maxim is crafted: “A doctor sees from afar with a blind eye.”

Clearly, doctors who know their patients on an individual basis over the long term and make personalized decisions provide vastly better care. Any nationalized system is sure to build walls between doctors and patients.

3) According to Jewish law, decisions involving health belong entirely to the doctor, binding the rabbi to his decision. The most common example is fasting on Yom Kippur. If the doctor says the person is not healthy enough to fast without risk to his life, the rabbi must instruct the person to eat.

This is true even if the doctor is a rabid secularist or an idolator, and national pride is entirely suspended. For instance, the greatest rabbi in the post-Second-Temple era asked for Roman doctors to heal the High Priest, because he felt they were more capable.

Essentially, then, the religion provides for the doctor to be sole arbiter in determining the degree of risk, with the law accepting his verdict as fact. To undermine this authority in favor of government would constitute a distortion of the healthy societal construct, in addition to creating the unhealthy distance between decider and patient.

4) Jewish law generally polices price gouging, prohibiting merchants from charging more than a sixth above market. A special exception exists for doctors, because medical care is not quantifiable and as such the market is never fully binding.

In Joseph Caro’s (16th century) Code, he notes that the doctor is selling “his wisdom.” There is no way to limit the price for my wisdom by comparing the price of someone else’s. No intrinsic equivalence exists between the minds and talents of various doctors. Theirs is not a square-peg-square-hole science to be learned by rote and performed by reflex.

5) Doctors who use their knowledge and authority in charitable ways are admired. The Talmud (Taanit 21b) tells of a doctor who was more respected in Heaven (based on certain events they took to be indicative) than the two greatest rabbis of that era. One of the rabbis was frustrated by this fact, so he went incognito to observe how the man ran his practice.

The following virtues were noted. He had people pay according to their means, but he made sure his staff did not notify him who was paying more or less, so he would be equally well-disposed toward all. He had a special garment made with a small hole, so he could give women injections without forcing them to disrobe. When he treated scholars, he not only forgave his fee, he would often slip them a few dollars.

Here we see a doctor behaving with charity and grace, but never under compulsion. When he forgives his fee out of respect, the quality of his service does not suffer.

By contrast, doctors who behave badly are criticized. The Mishna says (Kiddushin 81a) the best doctors end up in Hell, and the commentary of Rashi (1035-1105) breaks the critique down into several points which ring as true today: “They act as if they are impervious to illness and eat without regard to their own health. Their hearts are not humble before God. Sometimes their carelessness can cause deaths. They have the power to heal the poor and they often refrain.”

This is the first part of our analysis. Before taking a specific look at the conditions prevailing in the United States, we have identified the outline of a traditional Jewish view of what constitutes a healthy medical system. Doctors should be empowered with the evaluation of a patient’s health, they should be allowed to charge for their work accordingly and they should keep close contact with the patient to monitor the progress of their treatment.

Doctors as people, within their own volitional framework, should make an effort to be generous, to be respectful, to be cautious and to avoid arrogance and complacency. Both state and church (read: rabbinical authority) should respect the role of the doctor and not act to abridge his discretion.

About the Author

Jay D. Homnick, commentator and humorist, is a frequent contributor to The American Spectator. He also writes for Human Events. Here he speaks at the Rally for Religious Freedom in Miami on June 8, 2012.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (94) | Leave a comment Leave a comment

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.24.09 @ 9:34AM

Hi Jay
The above is why I enjoy the phrase "JudeoChristian tradition"

Ryan| 8.24.09 @ 9:55AM

One thing to add from the Christian side of things:

One thing I see Obama trying to do is state that it is somehow "Christian" - or at least part of our religious responsibilities - for a government to essentially force "giving" out of citizens.

The problem is that there isn't any Biblical (and probably no Talmudic) evidence to support that whatever "partnership" between God and man exists should be determined by the government. The Bible expresses that giving - a "good work" - is a result of Christ changing lives through the Gospel.

Christ, nor Paul, nor any other NT authors (nor any in the OT) ever promoted forced giving - through the government nor church. Even tithing always had a voluntary nature about it. We ARE told to pay our taxes (render unto Ceasar), but there is nothing prescriptive about governmental responsibilities other than protecting its citizens and administering judgment.

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 10:00AM

"The above is why I enjoy the phrase "JudeoChristian tradition"

I'm not sure why non-Jewish Americans should look to Talmudic scholarship for guidance. "Judeo-Christian tradition" is a recent 20th century construct, anachronistically projected backward in time for the purposes of "inclusiveness". No such thing was recognized until the first half of the 20th century. Before then Americans recognized their traditions as Christian ones.

Can anyone can name any aspects of pre-20th century American culture that are particularly Jewish in character?

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 10:57AM

"Can anyone can name any aspects of pre-20th century American culture that are particularly Jewish in character? "

I'll give it a shot.

First, the Christian Bible itself contains the Old Testament. That's the same Old Testament that the Jewish faith wrote and follow today. So, Christianity itself is "Jewish" in both character and content. Jesus himself was a Jew, remember?

Then there's the "Jewish" practice of worshiping in a Temple, what Christians call a Church. Churches are an integral part of American society, more so prior to the 20th century than today. Churches were the primary gathering place for Americans, being placed of both religious observance and social interactions.

The same is true with the Jewish practice of respect and allegiance to religious leaders, Those leaders are called Priests and Fathers in Christianity and Rabbi's in the Jewish faith. For almost the first 200 years of American history, our religious leaders held a very high position in our society. Priests and Fathers wielded a lot of power in communities, surpassing that of even our politicians, just like the Rabbi's who wield great power in Jewish society. That power has only shifted to the politicians in the 20th Century, and this was mainly due to the world wars which, by necessity, gave those politicians this power, power they have refused to abandoned back to the citizens like our Religious figure, Fathers, Priests and yes, Rabbi's

Second, Law. Many of the same Laws we adopted and enforced over the last 200 years are found within the Jewish faith. Murder, Theft, Rape, Assault (just like the assault example given in this article) , these are just a few examples of Old Jewish Law, both in defining those laws and their punishments, being applied here in the US. Even some of the "Jewish" punishments for those crimes have been adapted and applied here in the US. Assault is a great example. The victims of assault have the right to SUE their assaulter in Court, demanding and receiving compensation, including compensation for medical bills, just like the author has described.

Those are just two example of how Jewish traditions and practices have been adopted and included into the American Experience. There's many more, if you only give the question a little thought. So, I hope that answers your question.

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 11:02AM

"Those are just two example of how Jewish traditions and practices have been adopted and included into the American Experience."

I'm sorry - I asked if anyone can name any aspects of pre-20th century American culture that are *particularly Jewish* in character. I did not ask whether Christianity shared ancient roots with Judaism. Christianity is, obviously, not "particularly Jewish".

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 11:08AM

"I asked if anyone can name any aspects of pre-20th century American culture that are *particularly Jewish* in character." I just gave you them, including the fact that Christianity, the primary faith in America, being Jewish in both charter and content. So, what,. exactly, are you asking for? You want examples? I gave you them!

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 11:15AM

"I just gave you them, including the fact that Christianity, the primary faith in America, being Jewish in both charter and content"

Chris·ti·an·i·ty (krĭs'chē-ān'ĭ-tē, krĭs'tē-)
n.
1. The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus.

Does Judaism revere the life and teachings of Jesus, or does Judaism reject the life and teachings of Jesus? If the central tenet of Christianity - that Christ is the Messiah - is rejected by Jews then then Christianity can hardly be called "Jewish in character and content".

Also, houses of worship are (obviously) not "particularly Jewish", though Christian churches are (obviously) *particularly* Christian.

par⋅tic⋅u⋅lar
/pərˈtɪkyələr, pəˈtɪk-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [per-tik-yuh-ler, puh-tik-] Show IPA
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to a *single* or specific person, thing, group, class, occasion, etc., *rather than to others* or all;

Can anyone can name any aspects of pre-20th century American culture that are *particularly* Jewish in character?

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 11:25AM

"Can anyone can name any aspects of pre-20th century American culture that are *particularly* Jewish in character? "

Ok, I'll keep it simple for you: Law, Rights to Religions Observance, Religious Importance in our society , Religious Influence in our society. Both Christianity and Judaism share these characteristics . As a matter of fact, Christianity got those characteristics from Judaism! They didn't invent them on their own, they TOOK them directly from Judaism. Just like they took the Old Testament.

I still wonder what point you're trying to make, Christianity and Judaism shares a lot of similarities, they are practically the same religion. So what's different between the two? There's only one real difference. Christians believe that Jesus, a Jew, was the son of God, the savior sent by God as predicted in the Jewish faith. Jews don't believe this, as Jesus never actually SAVE society from the evil that plagues it, like the Prophets said he would. Since those prophecies were never fulfilled, The Jews know that Jesus couldn't be our savior like the Christians believe.

Christians put all their faith in a man, and a dead man at that. Jews put their faith in God. That's the only real difference.

So, what's your point, that you can't really separate Christianity from Judaism, can't point to a part of America society and say "Look, that's JEWISH in nature!" Of course you can't do that, since it's VERY hard to actually separate Christianity and Judaism.

Bob Miller| 8.24.09 @ 11:30AM

The moral precepts adopted from Judaism are a major factor distinguishing (most) Americans from pagans.

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 11:33AM

"Also, houses of worship are (obviously) not "particularly Jewish", though Christian churches are (obviously) *particularly* Christian. "

Yea, right, tell that to the Jews who pay in their Synagogues.

"A synagogue (from Greek: συναγωγή, transliterated synagogē, "assembly"; בית כנסת beyt knesset, "house of assembly"; שול or בית תפילה beyt t'fila, "house of prayer", shul; אסנוגה, esnoga) is a Jewish house of prayer."

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 11:33AM

Correct: that should be Pray and not Pay, Sorry.

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 11:38AM

"Rights to Religions Observance, Religious Importance in our society , Religious Influence in our society. Both Christianity and Judaism share these characteristics"

Then they are not particularly Jewish.

"Christianity and Judaism shares a lot of similarities, they are practically the same religion."

Excuse me?

"So what's different between the two?"

Judaism is specific to the Jewish people - it is an expression of the Covenant between the Jewish People and their God, and excludes non-Jews. Christianity is based on the life and teachings of Christ as found in the New Testament, the essence of which being that Christ is a manifestation of God and is the Messiah - it excludes non-Christians. Jews reject the teachings of Christ - the central tenet of Christianity. Christians reject the idea that of a Covenant existing between God and the Jewish people only - the central tenet of Judaism.

My god. You really don't know these things?

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 11:40AM

"The moral precepts adopted from Judaism are a major factor distinguishing (most) Americans from pagans."

The moral precepts that define Christianity are epitomized in Christ's Sermon on the Mount, in the New Testament, which Judaism specifically does not recognize.

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 11:43AM

" Then they are not particularly Jewish. "

Nor are they "particualrly" Christion. So, the two religions share the same begining, thesame charistrict, the same beliefes. They are pratically inseprable. You just don't want to admit this. Why is that?

" My god. You really don't know these things? "
Apperenlty I know a lot more about this subject than you do,. You can't even admit, or understand, that the same characteristics, something you ASKED for, exist in both Christianity and Judaism. You can't admit that "Judeo-Christian" is an apt term for the heart of US society, the very foundation of our rights and laws.

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 11:44AM

"So, the two religions share the same begining, thesame charistrict, the same beliefes."

*sigh*

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 11:47AM

"The moral precepts that define Christianity are epitomized in Christ's Sermon on the Mount, in the New Testament, which Judaism specifically does not recognize. "

Jesus was a JEW. H was preaching the Jewish faith, trying to get Jews to remain faithful to their own beliefs. Those sermons were JEWISH faiths and beliefs. They weren't separate from Judaism, they were Judaism! "Christianity" didn't even appear until AFTER Jesus died, and it took about 100 years for that to happen.

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 11:52AM

"Judaism is specific to the Jewish people"

"sigh"

Christianity is BASED on Judaism. It may have separated from Judaism two thousand years ago, but you can't ignore that the same beliefs about the treatment of our fellow man, concepts like Justice, Charity, and the like are the same in both Judaism AND Christianity. This is because the Christians adopted those beliefs from the Jewish faith, Christianity's very roots is Judaism!

Ryan| 8.24.09 @ 11:58AM

Argh.

Judaism - particularly the OT - provides a framework for Christian theology; it's just that Christianity, in a sense, is a different conclusion on that theology.

There isn't anything that is "particularly" Jewish in American foundations, because those things that are a cross between what both Jews and Christians hold to be true.

Hence the term "Judeo-Christian." It's an accurate term. Certain Christian fundamentals (the law and the prophets, as contained in the OT), are practically the same thing as the Jews believe.

Without Judaism, we have NO Christianity. Jesus was Jewish, and according to Christian interpretation of prophecy, fulfilled the OT law and prophecies...given by by God to the Jews.

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 12:03PM

"H was preaching the Jewish faith, trying to get Jews to remain faithful to their own beliefs. Those sermons were JEWISH faiths and beliefs."

I suggest you ask your Rabbi if the teachings of Christ are recognized as Judaic and if - as you believe - Judaism and Christianity are indistinguishable and interchangeable.

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 12:07PM

BTW, S.L, which form of Christianity is the true form? Are the Chalics praticing true Christiany, or is it the Prodisents, the Mormons, the Babtists? or some other "Christian" beliefe. If we follow your argument that Judesm is sperate from Christiaity and use the Church as ax emaple as to that seperaton, one much ask WHICH Church is the type of Church you're referring to? You can't claim that the Catholic Church is separate from a Synagogue and yet claim that that Church is equal to a Presbyterian Church. By you're very argument, all the Christian Churches are just as separate from each other as they are from a Synagogue. So, which Church shall we use for a comparison. I guess it would have to be the Catholics as they have more Churches, and more followers, than any other "Christian" faith, right? So, what about the other churches? I guess they don't count anymore as we need to separate the different faiths, don't we?

Come on, S.L, tell us, which Christian Faith is American society based upon?

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 12:08PM

"I suggest you ask your Rabbi if the teachings of Christ are recognized as Judaic "

And you're a Rabbi and can claim, without hypocrisy, that they were different? I suggest you follow your own advice.

Bob Miller| 8.24.09 @ 12:11PM

SL Toddard said "The moral precepts that define Christianity are epitomized in Christ's Sermon on the Mount, in the New Testament, which Judaism specifically does not recognize."

Whoever fails to recognize any Jewish content in this and other sermons is not paying attention.

Simon Templar| 8.24.09 @ 12:16PM

Sigh...Ah..Toddard is now a theologian and religious scholar and the fountainhead of all religious and spiritual knowledge...Do you have job or is this your job? How much does Acorn pay you?

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 12:21PM

"Judaism and Christianity are indistinguishable and interchangeable. "

I never said they were. I said they were similar in both their faiths and their structures. The only difference is the belief in Christ as our savior. That a BIG difference, but that doesn't mean that the two faiths don't share similar characteristic, and it was those characteristics that you were asking about, not the actual beliefs themselves. correct?

Iv';e given you several example of "Jewish Characteristics" found in American society. You tried to make this impossible by including the quantifier "particular" in your question, but, as I have shown you, the "particular" characteristics are only a small part of the beliefs of the two religions. The similarities are so numerous that the differences are unimportant when applied to the effects those beliefs have upon our society. Not satisfied with that, ,not being able to accept that Judeism and Christianity share many of the same characteristics , many of the same values, you reject those examples as inconsequential and have now turned this into an argument of the very religion's themselves. something which is not what you originally asked for. You want to know what characteristics of Jewish faith are found in America, correct? Well, I've given you plenty.

S.L WHY do you reject the "Jewish" characteristics that abound in Christianity and American society? Are you afraid to admit they exist, or are you just unwilling to admit that your question has been answered, just not in the way you were hoping for?

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 12:23PM

"Whoever fails to recognize any Jewish content in this and other sermons is not paying attention."

I couldn't agree more.

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 12:28PM

S.L What aspects of pre-20th century American culture that "particularly" Cristian in character?

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 12:28PM

" "Judaism and Christianity are indistinguishable and interchangeable. "

I never said they were"

You said: "they are practically the same religion"

"as I have shown you, the "particular" characteristics are only a small part of the beliefs of the two religions."

You have shown no such thing. The central tenets of both religions are categorically different and mutually exclusive: Judaism is specific to the Jewish people - it is an expression of the Covenant between the Jewish People and their God, and excludes non-Jews. Christianity is based on the life and teachings of Christ as found in the New Testament, the essence of which being that Christ is a manifestation of God and is the Messiah - it excludes non-Christians. Jews reject the teachings of Christ - the central tenet of Christianity. Christians reject the idea that of a Covenant existing between God and the Jewish people only - the central tenet of Judaism.

Sorry.

Ben| 8.24.09 @ 12:29PM

SL Toddard - I am not sure what you are getting at, but while Jews, clearly, were not among the founders, and have only ever been at most 3% of the US population, there are some Jewish elements that makes the term "Judeo-Christian" appropriate. Most of these have already been pointed out to you, but I feel that unless we all spoke Hebrew and ate bagels you wouldnt be satisfied. The early puritan settlers however, saw themselves in light of the Hebrew Old Testament and America as the new Israel. Hebrew was a required course in early American universities. One of the best candidates for the National Seal was drawn up by two secularists - Franklin and Jefferson - and showed Moses and the Children of Israel passing through the Red Sea. Founders and Presidents such as Adams and Lincoln expressed opinions that could be thought of as Christian Zionist and can be explained by American Protestant's deep connection and attraction to the Jews of the Bible. Wider aspects of law and morality are also from Judaism which was transfered and adopted and propogated by Christianity. My hunch however, is that you are trying to give an overly religious significance to ther term "Judeo-Christian" - and in that case, well no, America is not particularly Jewish - but neither is it particularly "Christian."

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 12:31PM

" I couldn't agree more. "

You just contradicted your own argument! First you claim that Jesus wasn't preaching Judaism (ask that Rabbi, remember?), now you admit he was! Well, which one is it, was Jesus a Jew or not? Wad he preaching Judaism or not?

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 12:35PM

"You said: "they are practically the same religion" "

"Practically" doesn't mean their "indistinguishable and interchangeable" like you believe, or pretend to believe. A Ford truck is "practically" the same as a Chevy truck, but you can't replace the parts of that Ford truck with those of the Chevy truck, correct?

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 12:36PM

"What aspects of pre-20th century American culture that "particularly" Cristian in character?"

Puritanism, the profound effect of which on American society can hardly be overstated.

Your turn.

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 12:36PM

"You just contradicted your own argument! First you claim that Jesus wasn't preaching Judaism (ask that Rabbi, remember?), now you admit he was!"

I did? Where?

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 12:42PM

"Christianity is based on the life and teachings of Christ as found in the New Testament"

S.L., the New Testament, the "teachings" of Christ himself, are the same "teachings" that is found in Judaism. The concepts of Justice, Faith, Charity, and the like, which Jesus and his followers promoted are all similar to those found in Judaism because all were taken directly from the Jewish faith. Jesus even used examples, and quotes, of the Old Testament, the JEWISH Testament, in his teachings! How can you deny this?

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 12:44PM

"I suggest you ask your Rabbi if the teachings of Christ are recognized as Judaic"

Does this stir your memory?

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 12:44PM

Your turn, Ray.

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 12:49PM

"Does this stir your memory?"

Yes - the teachings of Christ are not Judaic, though they contain Jewish content, as Christ was distinguishing his teachings from Judaism. Thus he says "You have heard (Jewish teaching), but I say (Christian Teaching)" etc, as in "You have heard that it was said, `An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also".

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 12:52PM

"Puritanism, the profound effect of which on American society can hardly be overstated. , the profound effect of which on American society can hardly be overstated. "

Puritanism is based uopn the strict following if the Bible, a Bible which contains the Old Testament, remember? The Puritans believed very strongly in the Old Testament, remember? That's why they believed very strongly in "original sin," a Jewish concept! Who wrote the Old Testament? Oh, that's right, it was the Jews!

The ball's back in your court.

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 12:53PM

Let me also say, Ray, that yes Jesus was born into a Jewish family, but the central tenet of his teaching - that He is the Son of Man, the Messiah - are anathema to the Jewish faith and rejected entirely.

Except for Jews for Jesus, I suppose. And Bob Novak.

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 12:58PM

"Puritanism is based uopn the strict following if the Bible, a Bible which contains the Old Testament, remember? The Puritans believed very strongly in the Old Testament, remember? That's why they believed very strongly in "original sin," a Jewish concept! Who wrote the Old Testament? Oh, that's right, it was the Jews!"

That is idiotic.

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 1:06PM

"but the central tenet of his teaching - that He is the Son of Man, the Messiah - "

Let me state that these "teaching' didn't apperae until much later in Jesus's life. Most of them didn't even appear untill AFTER Juss died. Those "teachibngs, like the New Testament, were concived and written YEARS after Jesus died, not befor he died. Just take a good look atr the Dead Sea Scrolls and you'll see just how much Judaism is involved in "Christianity. ALL of those scrolls were written AFTER Jesus died, not before. They are the basis for the new Testament, as even the Catholic Church will tell you.

MOST of Jesus's teachings were about the basic tenants of the Jewish faith, like adherence to principle, to Justice, to family, to faith. Those are NOT uniquely Christian beliefs, started by Jesus, and ONLY Jesus. They are ORIGINALLY Jewish beliefs, values, and faiths. Jesus was teaching Jewish values and beliefs, although I doubt you'll ever admit this.

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 1:07PM

" That is idiotic. "

You really don't know anything about the Puritans, do you? It's rather amusing that you chose a group that you have no understanding of to make an argument.

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 1:09PM

"Yes - the teachings of Christ are not Judaic,"

They were at the time he made them. You see, Christianity didn't even exist until AFTER Jesus died. How can he teach something that didn't exist during his life time?

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 1:12PM

"You really don't know anything about the Puritans, do you?"

Yes you're right - I didn't know the Puritans "followed the Bible". Such learning.

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 1:18PM

"I didn't know the Puritans "followed the Bible"""

Ok, Mr. Expert, what did they follow?

"The Puritans believed that the Bible was God's true law, and that it provided a plan for living. The established church of the day described access to God as monastic and possible only within the confines of "church authority". Puritans stripped away the traditional trappings and formalities of Christianity which had been slowly building throughout the previous 1500 years. Theirs was an attempt to "purify" the church and their own lives. "

http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/www7/puritans.html

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 1:19PM

"You see, Christianity didn't even exist until AFTER Jesus died"

*sigh*

This is an entirely separate subject. *Christians* believe Christ was, knew himself to be and proclaimed himself to be the Son of God and the Messiah, a belief which makes one by definition a Christian. Jews do not believe this. It is an essential distinction between the two.

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 1:20PM

"Ok, Mr. Expert, what did they follow?"

Jesus. I was being sarcastic. Are you in grammar school or something?

Ray| 8.24.09 @ 1:35PM

"Jesus. I was being sarcastic. Are you in grammar school or something? "

Your not being sarcastic, you're being condescending,. a typical elitist reaction to a lost argument.

"This is an entirely separate subject."

No, it isn't. You claim that Jesus wasn't teaching Judaism. You claimed that he and his followers were teaching a different type of religion when, in fact, they were preaching a return to pure Judaism.

There's something you don't seem to understand. Jesus used the belief that he was the son of God to give creditably to his teachings, and that claim didn't even start until shortly before his death. This is why the Christian New testament say very little about Jesus life before his "Sermon Mount" preaching. The "Christians" don't want their followers to know that Jesus was a Jew. Just like you don't want people to understand that, which is why you're spending so much time trying to convince us that he wasn't "relly' a Jew.

Tio bad for you that the people of Jesus's time knew he was a Jew. Do you even yo know what was written above Jesus's head when his was crucified? That's right: "King of the Jews."

Jesus was a Jew, he taught Judaism. He didn't teach anything else. He wanted the Jews to return to the faith he believed in, the Jewish faith. He thought the the Jews had wandered from the true faith, they they had forgone their faith for simple earthly pleasure, that hey had abandoned God for their own selfish pleasures, and he wanted that to stop. He wanted the Jews to return to their faith. That's what Jesus taught.

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 1:40PM

"Jesus was a Jew, he taught Judaism. He didn't teach anything else"

Jesus did not believe that Jesus was the Son of God and the Messiah?

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Organs for sale| 8.24.09 @ 1:56PM

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By Brother Nathanael Kapner, Copyright 2009

Articles May Be Reproduced Only With Authorship of Br Nathanael Kapner
& Link To Real Zionist News (SM)

Support Brother Nathanael! HERE

Or Send Your Contribution To:
Brother Nathanael Kapner; PO Box 1242; Frisco CO 80443
E-mail: bronathanael@yahoo.com

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S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 1:57PM

"HOW US RABBIS & ISRAEL
TRAFFIC IN HUMAN ORGANS"

That's another distinction, Ray. Christianity does not embrace human-organ trafficking in the same way Judaism does. I believe Christ said “Do not think that I have come to abolish the trafficking of human organs; I have come to fill those organs with fennel and ground pork”

Parable Of The Sausage Maker, Papa Gino 5:12

OrgANS FOR SALE| 8.24.09 @ 1:57PM

HOW US RABBIS & ISRAEL
TRAFFIC IN HUMAN ORGANS & MONEY LAUNDERING
By Brother Nathanael Kapner, Copyright 2009

Articles May Be Reproduced Only With Authorship of Br Nathanael Kapner
& Link To Real Zionist News (SM)

Support Brother Nathanael! HERE

Or Send Your Contribution To:
Brother Nathanael Kapner; PO Box 1242; Frisco CO 80443
E-mail: bronathanael@yahoo.com

For The Best Alternative News Coverage CLICK: Rense.com Here

Organs for Sale| 8.24.09 @ 1:58PM

HOW US RABBIS & ISRAEL
TRAFFIC IN HUMAN ORGANS & MONEY LAUNDERING
By Brother Nathanael Kapner, Copyright 2009

Articles May Be Reproduced Only With Authorship of Br Nathanael Kapner
& Link To Real Zionist News (SM)

Support Brother Nathanael! HERE

Or Send Your Contribution To:
Brother Nathanael Kapner; PO Box 1242; Frisco CO 80443
E-mail: bronathanael@yahoo.com

For The Best Alternative News Coverage CLICK: Rense.com Here

Palestinian Organs for sale| 8.24.09 @ 2:02PM

In my book, Jewish Supremacism, I wrote nothing about the accusation Jewish leaders call, “Blood Libel.” From ancient times all the way into the 20th Century there have been repeated accusations by Christian authorities that some extremist Jews have acted their out their deep hatred of Gentiles by kidnapping and then ritually sacrificing Christian children. From the Jewish Talmud and from the writings of prominent Jewish leaders I document many, almost insanely hateful pronouncements against Christians in my book, but I thought discussion of Jewish ritual murder of Christians would be beyond the pale for many of my readers and might throw doubt upon the larger body of my well-documented research. Now the taboo on discussion of Jewish ritual murder has been broken, and by none other than a very prominent Jewish, Israeli scholar, Dr. Ariel Toaff, who is considered the perhaps the most knowledgeable Jewish professor in the world on Jewish life in the Middle Ages. As Israel Shamir writes, “His three-volumed Love, Work, and Death (subtitled Jewish Life in Medieval Umbria) is an encyclopaedia of this admittedly narrow area.” Dr. Toaff teaches at the respected Jewish University at Bar Ilan, close to Tel Aviv and his father was no less than the lead Jewish Rabbi of Rome.

Dr. Toaff’s book, Bloody Passover, chronicles the finding in the year of 1247 the murdered-and-bled body of a two year old Christian boy named Simon in the basement of a Jewish family in Trent, Italy, and the book reports on the subsequent trial of the Jews allegedly responsible for the murder. In the book, Dr. Toaff presents compelling evidence that the Christian child was murdered in a Jewish extremist blood ritual. He doesn’t say that this ritual is common among Jews, but argues that during the Medieval period some extremist Jews, animated by hatred against Christian persecution, committed these and other heinous crimes against Christian children. As one can imagine, this book by a famous and respected Jewish scholar has caused a deluge of hateful commentary from Jewish extremists such as Abraham Foxman of the ADL (Anti-Defamation League of B’nai B’rith), so much so that after threats and attacks, the professor had the book withdrawn and it will not be available to the general public. However a few review copies are out and the book is extremely well documented and reasoned. Jewish ritual murder has classically been characterized as extremist Jews ritually murdering Christian children and then using their blood in ritual foods. Some Jewish scholars have attacked the book’s thesis by saying the use of blood that way would be completely against Jewish laws, because Jews view any blood as unclean. These rabbis conveniently forgot to mention that some Orthodox rabbis actually suck the blood from the freshly circumcised penises of infants. This sounds very strange, but is true and one Jewish organization even published pictures of the ceremony.

Another interesting corollary is that on Purim, Orthodox Jews have some very strange rituals and dietary habits. Purim is a major Jewish celebration of the murder of Haman, all of his sons and 70,000 Persians that Jews claim plotted a pogrom against them. In Synagogues at Purim, Jewish children beat willow branches which symbolizes the beating of Haman, a fairly hateful ceremony to be sure. Even stranger is the cuisine made up for Jewish Purim feasts. They make and eat with glee Hamantaschen, which are triangle shaped cookies that symbolize Haman’s ears. But, the height of their dietary oddness might be the dish they call Kreplach, which are dough pockets filled with ground beef, the ground beef is meant to represent the beaten flesh of Haman. Some of you who are new to the world of Jewish extremism might not believe me but I document these facts from mainstream Jewish sources in my book Jewish Supremacism.

Israel Shamir is and Israeli Jew who served in the military, and was a distinguished scholar of the Talmud. He gradually realized that hardcore Judaism and the Zionist State are perhaps the most extreme forms of racism and supremacism in the world.

Organs for sale| 8.24.09 @ 2:05PM

Jewish soldiers harvesting Palestinian organs? Reporter has 'no clue' if the claims are true

By Stephanie Gutmann World Last updated: August 20th, 2009

24 Comments Comment on this article

The writer of the article entitled “They Plundered the Organs of Our Sons,” which ran in Sweden’s largest circulation daily newspaper earlier this week, now says he has “no clue” whether the explosive allegations he levelled at IDF soldiers are true or not. “It concerns me, to the extent that I want [Palestinian accusations of IDF theft of organs for harvesting] to be investigated, that’s true,” he told Israel’s state-run radio station on Wednesday, “But whether it’s true or not - I have no idea, I have no clue.”

CNN has helpfully weighed in, stressing over and over in its account that the Aftonbladet article was merely “an op-ed.” “[Article author Donald] Bostrom stressed that he has no proof that Israeli soldiers were stealing organs,” said CNN, “and that the purpose of his opinion article was to call for an investigation into numerous claims in the 1990s that such activity was going on.”

If the article was just “opinion”, just musings on the passing scene, then the Swedish newspaper handles op-eds very differently than papers in the US and the UK. “They Plundered the Organs of Our Sons” was a “double truck”; in other words, it was splashed over two full facing pages, topped with a large banner headline, and illustrated with ghoulish full-colour photos. In most newspapers, such treatment is used to highlight an article whose allegations are the product of months of scrupulously careful reporting, which would mean something more substantial than the claims of several people in an area where wild conspiracy charges are common.

But all is not totally rotten in Sweden. One of the most eloquent denunciations of the Aftonbladet insinuation fest has come from rival daily, Sydsvenskan:

“We have heard the story before, in one form or the other. It follows the traditional pattern of conspiracy theory: a great number of loose threads that the theorist tempts the reader to tie into a neat knot without having been provided with any proven connection whatsoever,” wrote Mats Skogkär of Sydsvenskan.

“Whispers in the dark. Anonymous sources. Rumors. That is all it takes. After all we all know what they [the Jews] are like, don’t we: inhuman, hardened. Capable of anything. Now all that remains is the defence, equally predictable: Anti-Semitism? No, no, just criticism of Israel.”

S.L. Toddard| 8.24.09 @ 2:06PM

"Organs for sale"

I think you're looking for Craigslist.

Palestinians Organs for sale| 8.24.09 @ 2:09PM

< HOME Thursday, March 19, 2009
Ritual Murder is Part of Black Magic

"I chose to [speak] about the Jewish holiday of Purim, because it is connected to the month of March. This holiday has some dangerous customs that will, no doubt, horrify you, and I apologize if any reader is harmed because of this."

"During this holiday, the Jew must prepare very special pastries, the filling of which is not only costly and rare - it cannot be found at all on the local and international markets."

"Unfortunately, this filling cannot be left out, or substituted with any alternative serving the same purpose. For this holiday, the Jewish people must obtain human blood so that their clerics can prepare the holiday pastries. In other words, the practice cannot be carried out as required if human blood is not spilled!!"

"Before I go into the details, I would like to clarify that the Jews' spilling human blood to prepare pastry for their holidays is a well-established fact, historically and legally, all throughout history. This was one of the main reasons for the persecution and exile that were their lot in Europe and Asia at various times."

"This holiday [Purim] begins with a fast, on March 13, like the Jewess Esther who vowed to fast. The holiday continues on March 14; during the holiday, the Jews wear carnival-style masks and costumes and overindulge in drinking alcohol, prostitution, and adultery. This holiday has become known among Muslim historians as the "Holiday of Masks."

"Who was Esther, and why the Jews sanctify her and act as she did, I will clarify in my article next Tuesday, Allah willing. Today, I would like to tell you how human blood is spilled so it can be used for their holiday pastries. The blood is spilled in a special way. How is it done?"

"For this holiday, the victim must be a mature adolescent who is, of course, a non-Jew - that is, a Christian or a Muslim. His blood is taken and dried into granules. The cleric blends these granules into the pastry dough; they can also be saved for the next holiday. In contrast, for the Passover slaughtering, about which I intend to write one of these days, the blood of Christian and Muslim children under the age of 10 must be used, and the cleric can mix the blood [into the dough] before or after dehydration."

"Let us now examine how the victims' blood is spilled. For this, a needle-studded barrel is used; this is a kind of barrel, about the size of the human body, with extremely sharp needles set in it on all sides. [These needles] pierce the victim's body, from the moment he is placed in the barrel."

"These needles do the job, and the victim's blood drips from him very slowly. Thus, the victim suffers dreadful torment - torment that affords the Jewish vampires great delight as they carefully monitor every detail of the blood-shedding with pleasure and love that are difficult to comprehend."

"After this barbaric display, the Jews take the spilled blood, in the bottle set in the bottom [of the needle-studded barrel], and the Jewish cleric makes his coreligionists completely happy on their holiday when he serves them the pastries in which human blood is mixed."

"Thereis another way to spill the blood: The victim can be slaughtered as a sheep is slaughtered, and his blood collected in a container. Or, the victim's veins can be slit in several places, letting his blood drain from his body."

"This blood is very carefully collected - as I have already noted - by the 'rabbi,' the Jewish cleric, the chef who specializes in preparing these kinds of pastries."

"The human race refuses even to look at the Jewish pastries, let alone prepare them or consume them!"

- Ar-Riyadh, Saudi government daily, two-part article entitled "The Jewish Holiday of Purim" by Dr. Umayma Ahmad Al-Jalahma of King Faysal University in Al-Dammam, March 10 and March 12, 2002 *

Organs for sale| 8.24.09 @ 2:14PM

Publication time: 3 November 2006, 21:15

Five teenagers - three boys and two girls - aged from 13 to 16 went missing simultaneously in the southern Russian town of Bryansk near the Ukrainian border. It was reported about the loss by parents of a teenager almost two weeks ago.
Local police began the search of the children, who left home more than 10 days ago. The children were last seen at Bryansk 2 Railway Station, where they were registered by outdoor surveillancesystem, on October, 19 night. Witnesses said the teenagers were going to leave the town.
It was established that the children had not left their homes for the first time, although they used to disappear for two or three days. Police believe that an appeal to Bryansk residents will help to find the teenagers.
It is worth reminding that a similar case had happened in Krasnoyarsk in spring 2006,when five boys, aged from nine to twelve, went missing. One of the boys had been escaping from home repeatedly. The federal search of the children started and lasted for 21 days. More than one thousand people were employed in the search. The charred remains of the children were found in a sewing pipe in May.
A criminal case was incited by the Public Prosecutors' Office first on kidnapping, then on murder. The children's remains underwent numerous forensic medical expert examinations later to establish the death reasons. The children were buried in Krasnoyarsk on September, 25, the Russian agencyNews Lab reported.
Russian Christians accused local jews for kidnapping and killing these Christian and Muslim children in Krasnoyarsk that happened just a week before the jewish Passover in 2006. As established by Russian police in the last investigated case of jewish ritual murders of a 10-year-old Christianchild, Andrey Yushchinsky, during a trial in Kyiv in 1912, the jews regularly kidnap children and slowly exsanguinate them in a special ritual similar to the jewish slaughter of cattle. 33 wounds (equal to earthly years of Christ) in distinguished places of the body of a bound child victim arereported to be needed to collect the pouring blood according to the ritual.The blood in then collected in cloths, the cloths are subsequently dried up, burnt, and the ashes are added in jewish food, such as matzoth (buscuits of unleavened wheatmeal) . Police and religious expert includingjews converted to Christianity testified at the trial that the jews believed such food brought them financia prosperity, happiness and a huge sexual potency.
In addition to a definite number of wounds cut with a blunt instrument in distinguished places, a special feature distinguishing the jewish ritual from for example murders by Satanists is that the dead bodies of victims are to be thrown out in the open and should be in no case burried in the earth or hidden in some other way.
The remains of the children found in Krasnoyarsk were thrown in the open and contained no blood traces at all, meaning that the victims were exsanguinated before their deaths, acccording to an earlier Russian news report.

Palestinian Organs for sale| 8.24.09 @ 2:18PM

JEWISH RITUAL MURDER
by ARNOLD LEESE

Picture Postcard widely circulated in Poland showing ritual
murder of Agnes Hruza, age 19. Jew named Hilsner was found
guilty of this crime. (Date 1899, Story in Chapter 10).

"Soul had they none, nor lineage;
"Nor wit, nor headmen,
"Nor crafts, nor letters,
"Nor e'en a glimpse of God."
- British Edda.

"Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning...."
- St. John, viii, 44.

"In order to destroy the prestige of heroism for political crime, we shall send it for trial in the category of thieving, murder, and every abominable and filthy crime. Public opinion will then confuse in its conception this category of crime with the disgrace attaching to every other and will brand it with the same contempt."
Protocol 19 of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

"If I am killing a rat with a stick and have him in a corner, I am not indignant if he tries to bite me and squeals and gibbers with rage. My job is, not to get angry, but to keep cool, to attend to my footwork and to keep on hitting him where it will do the most good."

- A. S. Leese, speaking at Reception, 17th Feb., 1937, on his return from prison.

Palestinian organs for sale| 8.24.09 @ 2:25PM

CHAPTER 1

HUMAN SACRIFICE
A SEMITIC TRADITION

IT is incontestable that the ancient "Semites" manifested a peculiar leaning towards the practice of bloody sacrifices to their gods.

Typical is the Jewish story of Abraham offering to slay with a knife his first-born, Isaac, as an offering to Yahweh who had commanded him so to do. More typical still is the Semitic idea that his god would require such a murder to be done.

In Excavations at Gezer, R. A. S. Macalister tells us that the bodies of sacrificed young children were
found in all semitic strata; this work describes the remains of these victims of which pictures are given.

Isaiah charges the Jews with "enflaming themselves with idols under every green tree, slaying the children in the valleys under the clifts of the rocks" (lvii, 5). There are many other Old Testament references to the practice of sacrificing children to Moloch.

Says the Rev. J. Kitto in the Cyclopaedia of Biblical Literature 1895, "their altars smoked with human
blood from the time of Abraham to the fall of the Kingdoms of Judah and Israel."

G. A. Dorsey writes in Civilization (Hamish Hamilton): "Historically their temple at Jerusalem, like a Hindu or Aztec temple, was a shambles--one sacrifice after another."

The Jewish Encyclopedia (1904, Vol. VIII, p. 653) says: "The fact, therefore, now generally accepted by critical scholars, is that in the last days of the kingdom human sacrifices were offered to Yhwh as King or Counsellor of the Nation and that the Prophets disapproved of it ...."

Jesus Himself speaking to the Pharisees (St. John, viii, 44) charges them with being hereditary murderers, which term can have no other meaning than ritual murderers. "Ye are of your father the
devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do; he was a murderer from the beginning." This is in the Book on which "witnesses" are sworn when they give evidence against "anti-semites" who expose the murder of Christian children by Jews!

"Rabbinism was but an unfolding of Pharisaism, the full and swelling stream of corrupt doctrines, views and practices, of which the rivulets run up to the days of Christ and stretch back to those of Ezra until they are lost in the fountain-head, the Religious Philosophy of a debased Zoroastrianism." (Rev. J. Kitto, Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature.)

The trail of the tradition, then, is complete and leads to Rabbinism.

Israeli Ritual murders| 8.24.09 @ 2:28PM

WELL AUTHENTICATED CASES IN SEVENTEENTH AND EIGHTEENTH CENTURIES

NATURALLY, here we get a number of juridically decided cases, as might be expected.

1603. Verona. A Jew was tried on a charge of killing a child to get its blood for an infamous purpose. He was acquitted. The sentence of acquittal, dated 28th February, 1603, given in full in the Jew Roth's The Ritual Murder Libel and the Jew (p. 78), released the accused "because the Hebraic witch abhors the shedding of blood" and "various Princes held this rumour of the use of blood to be vain and false?" We hold that such absurd reasoning as all excuse for acquittal is clear proof that the Court was bought.

1670. Met. As this was a very strongly established case, one does not find any mention of it in Strack's book in defence of the Jews! A three-year-old boy was lost by his mother on the way to a well. The boy was wearing a red cap, and witnesses had seen him carried away by a Jew mounted on a horse. This Jew was Raphael Levi. At first, the boy's body could not be traced. The Jews, becoming frightened, spread the report that wolves must have killed him in the forest. The forest was searched and eventually the head, neck and ribs of a boy were found, together with clothes which were identified as the missing boy's, red cap and all, by the boy's father. But as these clothes were neither torn nor bloody, it was concluded that the wolf story was a "blind," and then witnesses came forward who had seen Raphael Levi with the boy in such places and at such times as to remove all doubt of his guilt. Levi was sentenced to death by the order of the Parliament of Metz, and was burned alive. Authority: La France Juive, by Drumont.

1698. Sandomir, Poland. Authority: The Jew Cecil Roth, in Ritual Murder Libel and the Jew, p. 24. The highest tribunal in the land, that of Lublin, condemned a Jew for Ritual Murder. the local court having exculpated him.

1748. Duniagrod, Poland. Jews condemned for Ritual Murder by Episcopal Court. Mentioned by Roth.

1753. Pavalochi, Poland. Jews condemned for Ritual Murder by Episcopal Court. Mentioned by Roth.

1753. Zhytomir, Poland. In this case, a three-year-old boy was murdered; Jews were tried by the Episcopal Court of Kiev and condemned to death. A painting supposed to commemorate this murder is even now visited by pilgrims to the Carthusian Monastery at Kalwarya near Cracow. Authority: The Jew Cecil Roth, in Ritual Murder Libel and the Jew, p. 25.

Of course, the Jew Roth denies that the cases quoted were Ritual Murders.

Dixie Pixie| 8.24.09 @ 2:33PM

Brilliant Rabbi, just freaking Brilliant.
First point, ignore any point in the current debate. The Second point is throw in a few points no one disagrees with and finally wander off onto a moral high ground that has nothing to do with the debate in the first place.

The first point, Rabbi, exactly what part of “ Thou Shall not Murder” either by omission or commission, do you not understand. The major part of the Obama-care debate is the question does the USA government have the right to terminate a life due to a patient costing too much. The lest a Rabbi could mention is it always against Jewish law to terminate a life especially for high cost reasons. Also what part of “ Thou Shall Not Steal” did you not understand. Another point of the Obama-care debate is the people in Obama-care are required to pay whatever Obama demands. Oh Sure Obama claims there will be a range of plans but everyone will be forced into some plan. Does Jewish Law not understand that enforced payment is stealing. The lest you could do is touch on it.

The Second point is no one is arguing doctors should not be paid. No where in Obama-care is a plan where doctors not compensated. Implying that doctors compensation is a part of the debate is to divert the debate. It nether enlightens nor informs or moves the debate forward. So the question arises, why are you trying to divert the debate.

As for my last point of wandering onto a moral high ground, No one is talking about breaking the doctor-patient relationship. The function of doctors is to heal people. Mighty nice of Jewish Law to recognize this fact. But your last points are not part of the current debate. Should you not state what Jewish Law stands on Obama “Death Panels”. Why don't you at lest try to learn what the major points of the Obama-care debate are before commentating where Jewish Law stands.

Organs for sale in Israel| 8.24.09 @ 2:34PM

WELL AUTHENTICATED CASES IN SEVENTEENTH AND EIGHTEENTH CENTURIES

NATURALLY, here we get a number of juridically decided cases, as might be expected.

1748. Duniagrod, Poland. Jews condemned for Ritual Murder by Episcopal Court. Mentioned by Roth.

1753. Pavalochi, Poland. Jews condemned for Ritual Murder by Episcopal Court. Mentioned by Roth.

Of course, the Jew Roth denies that the cases quoted were Ritual Murders.

Gods Chosen people peadophiles| 8.24.09 @ 2:48PM

Long list of Jewish Child Molestor Rabbis gets no media coverage and Jewish homosexual pedophiles are undisturbed.
Filed under:Homosexuality Jewry, "Israel", Zionism...

September 20, 2003 - 21:38

More evidence that these people who claim to be Jews are God's enemies and not His chosen people.

King of kings' Bible - Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are NOT, but [are] (Idumeans) the synagogue of Satan.
http://jahtruth.net/kofkad.htm

Know a tree by the fruit it bears.

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into The Fire.
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
http://jahtruth.net/kofkad.htm

Cases of Clergy Abuse

Case of Shlomo Aviner (Rosh Yeshiva, Ateret Cohanim Yeshiva, Rabbi of Beit El, Israel)

Case of Rabbi Lewis Brenner (Convicted of child molestation. The original charges included 14 counts of sodomy, sexual abuse and endangering the welfare of a child. He agreed to plead guilty to one count of sodomy in the third degree, a Class E felony, in exchange for a sentence of five years' probation.)

cary Loos| 8.24.09 @ 2:51PM

"it is finished"

Forest Fire Death| 8.24.09 @ 3:10PM

Revelation - Apocalypse
Chapter 9

1. "And the 5th. angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth and to HIM (the star or small beam of light is a PERSON - a Being of Light) was given the key to "the bottomless pit"; and there arose a SMOKE out of the pit, like (as) the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air (sky) were darkened because of (by reason of) the SMOKE of the pit."

Could anything fit that description better than the sky over Kuwait once Saddam had set fire to 1000 oil-wells? The sky was pitch-black at mid-day.

3. "And there came out of the SMOKE, LOCUSTS (but these are not locusts, they are flying machines that looked like locusts to John and he goes on to describe them later, in verses 7-10) upon the earth: and to them was given power, like (as) the SCORPIONS of the earth have power.

4. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads (telepathic contact with God).

5. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented 5 months: and their torment was like (as) the torment of a scorpion, when he strikes a man (the TORMENT when a scorpion strikes a man is that he does not know whether he is going to LIVE or DIE).

6. And in those days men shall seek death, and shall NOT find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

Now we come to the description of the "LOCUSTS" and I will come back to verses 3-6 and explain them later on when I have shown you what the LOCUSTS and the SCORPIONS really are, so that the description of what they do will make more sense to you, afterwards.

7. "And the shapes of the LOCUSTS were like unto (similar to) horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were (what looked similar to) crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.

8. And they had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions.

9. And they had breast-plates (armour), that looked like breast-plates of iron
(metal); and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

10. And they had tails like scorpions tails, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men 5 months (tormenting them)."

So these "LOCUSTS" were like unto "horses prepared for battle." In John's day the only type of mobile military machine was an armoured-horse (prepared unto battle) or an armoured-horse pulling a chariot.

However, these "horses prepared unto battle" were flying (locusts fly), and so he was shown flying war-machines, that had what looked similar to a crown of gold on their heads; faces like the faces of men; breast-plates of metal; the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle; tails like scorpions with stings in them.

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.24.09 @ 3:51PM

Toddard, you just like to argue and lie to make your arguments.
(Sigh) I went to Baylor University, "Jerusalem on the Brazos".
One of my favorite profs (Dr. Kyle Yates), helped modern Israel reconstruct a living speaking language called Hebrew right there in our Library conference room.
He was on the team that discovered the rosseta stone under Jerusalem that provided the key to the ancient written Hebrew. A life long project of his.
OK oh all knowing one, (Toddard), You are so shallow that you haven't even mentioned the CHRISTIAN doctrine of "adoption" upon which all subsequent English and American common law derives.
That doctrine explicitly states that we Christians are adopted...BY JESUS CHRIST...AS CHILDREN OF ISRAEL!

We Christians stand that Jesus of Nazereth IS the Messiah...duh...of Israel.
We then must accept that Israel cannot accept Him until His return, and they are going to pay a large price for waiting until then.

Don't argue with me, idiot. Your knowledge wouldn't wet my big toe properly.

Tim| 8.24.09 @ 4:20PM

More arguing than a Sarah Palin thread.

JP| 8.24.09 @ 4:28PM

"Can anyone can name any aspects of pre-20th century American culture that are particularly Jewish in character? "

a)The Family as we know orginated from the Jews (Monogamy was the norm during the time of Christ, and as far as I know was only practiced by that Hebrew Sect (as the Romans called it). Early Catholics (or Christians if you will) continued this tradition, whether they were Pagan Greeks or Pagan Romans, Pagan Saxons, etc...)

b)The Jews were monotheistic, and while we may think thier ancient religion as being unduly harsh, their image of God was ultimately a benevolent one(The OT is filled with stories of Sin and Redemption). Especially when compared to the Roman or Greek Gods (who were either indifferent or in many cases suffered the same temptations of humans). The Hebrew God was more concrete, and definitely more involved than say the ancient Hindi Gods or Budhhist God. For Islam, which came about in the 5 Century, the relationship between Allah and his human creation was that of Master to Slave. This was not so with the Jewish Yaweh and the Hebrews. The idea that every human created by God had inherent dignity and worth, not to mention certain Rights that no man can take away came from the Jews and was developed more fully in the writings of St Thomas Aquainas. From that understanding of Man flowed the idea of Universal Rights, and later Human Rights.

c)From b) comes our understanding of Justice. But that understanding, while developed within the Medieval Church, was first brought forth through the Jews. It is no surprise that the Jews continued thier study and questioning of "What is Justice?" after the Diaspora, as this question is an ancient one. While the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages was heavily sawyed by the writings of Aristotle duirng this period, its traditions began with the Jews, as many of the important figures of the Early Church (such as St Paul and St Peter, not to mention St John and the Holy Mother) were Jewish.

So, in a nut shell the Family, a benevolent God, Universal Rights, and Justice all prefigured the Christians not to mention the United States. Without the Jews there could not have been Christ, and without Christ there would be no Western Civilization -let alone redemption.

Dixie Pixie| 8.24.09 @ 4:38PM

There is more Moon-bats on this thread than a Daily Kos annual meeting.
Would it hurt anyone to keep to the lead authors main points.

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.24.09 @ 4:59PM

Dixie, hi!

I think Mr. Homnick is proud to have elicited so much good thought here. The idiots' comments simply serve to highlight the ignorance and pettiness of the detractors.

I wrote on another thread:

T.E.A.M. AMERICA.......who are we?

We are Americans

We fall into two overlapping groups.

We are small business owners or officers of small businesses, and our valued employees... and some of us are armed forces Veterans. Perhaps the common denominator among us is that all of us are our own men and women.
We small business people, our employees, and veterans pay 80% of the darned bills in our country, and we are going to take our country back!

All of us engage in a business that requires us to live off of our training and know how. Some of us are medical doctors in private practice, and some of us are engaged in some of the other 'professions'...in private practice. Some of us are simply darned good at providing a world of products and services to fellow Americans.
Many of us have employees who count on us every day to make decent, rational, decisions. Those employees have thrown in their lot with us, hoping that Together, we can navigate the rapids of our world..

(We found each other due to the splendid people at "The American Spectator". They allow free comments upon the articles they write.)
Today, we are all facing a future where our 'public servants' plan to be our masters, and we here....................... refuse.

We believe that in these days, our 'public servants' are trying to turn everything upside down in our country. Instead of listening to 'we the people', and trying in good faith to defend our constitution at the same time, they are throwing our freedom away for the votes of people they can buy with a welfare check or a bribe.

We as a T.E.A.M. can stop them!
contact us: kbjudgeroybean06@gmail.com

Cunning, deciever God chosen| 8.24.09 @ 5:26PM

Who or what is the Devil?"

Lucifer, the Devil, was the model of perfection (Ezekiel 28:12):

most perfect
most wise
most intelligent
most powerful
most knowledgeable
being ever created. (Ezekiel 28:15) -- PERIOD!

AIPAC fooled the USA| 8.24.09 @ 5:29PM

As a result of sin, Lucifer became the most corrupt, most evil creature in existence.
God drove Lucifer out of paradise.
Satan corrupted his own wisdom.
Although Satan's wisdom is now corrupt, he is still very wise.
God punished Satan by bringing him to a terrible fate.

Ezekiel 28:16-19 [16] Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. [17] Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. [18] By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. [19] All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.

Satans System| 8.24.09 @ 5:32PM

AIPAC, the FED Reserve Bank, money out of nothing, to tax the fools the GOYIMS, their children and their Children will become salaves to Satan system.

Jew hater idiot liars| 8.24.09 @ 5:39PM

Old Texican, here. I just thought I would see what happened if I used a strange user name. heh!

Obviously, there are lots of men who fear circumcision! Heh Heh Heh!

Get over it guys...it just takes a moment!

I was circumcised. I am a Christian. My mom thought it was the "cleanly" thing to do...heh!
(my father was not...so draw your own conclusions, smile)
My conclusion was...oh never mind...:)

Satans ChildrenMisleads World| 8.24.09 @ 5:45PM

Satans Children knows his time is short. They say they are chosen by god but in fact chosen by the DEVIL.
God generally prohibits Satan from performing miracles.

Usually, God will not allow Satan to perform miracles, for four reasons:

If Satan routinely performed miracles, too many people would not try to resist his ways because they would be looking for the benefits of miracles.

God performs miracles on the basis of faith. Most people can't get God to perform a miracle because they don't have enough faith. If Satan routinely performed miracles, most people would have faith that miracles can occur.

If Satan routinely performed miracles, many people who sincerely want to follow God would be misled.

God generally has used miracles as a 'seal of approval' to show that a prophet, pastor, etc., has God's approval. It would be very confusing if evil people could frequently do the same things.

"Does Satan know the future?"

Isaiah 44:6-7 [6] "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. [7] Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come-- yes, let him foretell what will come.

Ashkanazi Jews are not Jewish| 8.24.09 @ 5:48PM

People of God hates no one, to find hater of men, look at Nazi Israel, and the body snatchers killing for organs and organs for money.

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.24.09 @ 5:49PM

Are they NAZIS...or ragheads? hh heh heh!

Mike| 8.24.09 @ 7:11PM

Ray, how can a Christian not know Christ was a Jew?

Dave | 8.25.09 @ 2:13AM

S.L. Toddard, we could easily find out What was the nationality of Jesus Christ if he were not to pay $1000000 to keep his birth certificate secret.

Jews for Jesus| 8.25.09 @ 3:32PM

Before the destruction of the second Temple, Judaism acknowledged the need for blood sacrifice as atonement for sin, as required by God in Leviticus 17:11. But after that destruction, Jewish leaders replaced that requirement with prayer and good deeds. The first Christians, who were Jews, welcomed Jesus as the ultimate blood sacrifice for the sins of everyone (Jew and Gentile) who would receive Him. As Isaiah 53:6 put it, "All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all."

In an statement that resonated only with Jews, Jesus announced that He was the fulfillment of the bronze serpent that Moses raised in the wilderness (Numbers 21:9 and John 3:14-15); whoever would look toward Him in faith would not suffer the eternal consequences of sin.

Seven centuries before the birth of Jesus, the Jewish prophet Isaiah wrote that his people would reject the Messiah when he came (Isaiah 53:4). That remains true for the vast majority of them; however, a small but growing number of "Jews for Jesus" realize that, as British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli (a Jewish believer in Jesus) wrote, "Christianity is incomprehensible without Judaism, as Judaism is incomplete without Christianity."

Other Jewish believers have included composer Felix Mendelssohn (who wrote the music to "Hark, the Herald Angels Sing") planetary astronomer William Herschel (who discovered the planet Uranus), and Jay Sekulow of the American Center for Law and Justice.

Those Jewish folks and others see biblical Christianity and biblical Judaism as being inseparable. A few people at a time, more and more Jewish people are becoming willing to examine the claims of Jesus for themselves by reading the Brit Hadashah (the New Testament).

Kolya Krassotkin| 8.25.09 @ 3:34PM

Christianity is a hybrid of Judaism and Greek neo-platonism. Were it not for the Greek influence, instead of being an expansive, univeral movement open to all men, it would have remained a tribal religion, parochial and crude with no developed theology like 1st century AD Judaism.

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.25.09 @ 10:59PM

Hi Kolya
You are right...except that Jesus of Nazereth is the WORD of our Creator. In the beginning was the WORD.
Screw Plato!

Maia| 3.29.10 @ 10:36AM

sanovat ,että minun pitäisi välttää naistenlehtiä...no sieltä tämä idea nyt kuitenkin lähti.super food, eli terveellisin ruoka mitä planeettamme tarjoaa. normaalin ruuan joukkoon lisätään jotain erittäin terveellistä, ja siinä se on, terveellisempi ruoka !!! minä lisään aamumyslin joukkoon 100% kaakaota ja goji-marjoja ! terveellistä ja äärimmäisen kallista....eiku "hyvää" !

killua| 3.1.11 @ 3:29AM

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