The American Spectator

Big J| 8.19.09 @ 7:08AM

Mr. Ferrara, this pretty much sums up the Obama "health care tour":

Pissing on our heads, swearing that it's raining.

I don't think it's working out so well.

Robert Rosencrans| 8.19.09 @ 7:20AM

Great article. The most direct proof of rationing is the fact you're opening the doors to a never ending stream of illegal aliens (Link 1) as opposed to a limited supply of doctors.

The second proof of rationing is being engineered behind the scenes by the likes of former Ssssenator Daschle, a very slippery eel like fellow whose lack of ethics makes him a perfect candidate to join the Goodfellas at the White House.

Pressssident Obama, another slippery serpent, took a billion of the stimulus to jump start Comparative Effective Research (CER) and to also start a federal advisory council to implement the idea.

President Obama lies to the public with a seeming disdain never before observed in American history.

This health care issue and Obama remind me of an H.L. Mencken quote: "If a politician found he had cannibals among his constituents, he would promise them missionaries for dinner."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204683204574358233780260914.html

The president has emphasized the importance of limiting services to "health care that works." To identify such care, he provided more than $1 billion in the fiscal stimulus package to jump-start Comparative Effectiveness Research (CER) and to finance a federal CER advisory council to implement that idea. That could morph over time into a cost-control mechanism of the sort proposed by former Sen. Tom Daschle, Mr. Obama's original choice for White House health czar. Comparative effectiveness could become the vehicle for deciding whether each method of treatment provides enough of an improvement in health care to justify its cost.

In the British national health service, a government agency approves only those expensive treatments that add at least one Quality Adjusted Life Year (QALY) per £30,000 (about $49,685) of additional health-care spending. If a treatment costs more per QALY, the health service will not pay for it. The existence of such a program in the United States would not only deny lifesaving care but would also cast a pall over medical researchers who would fear that government experts might reject their discoveries as "too expensive."

One reason the Obama administration is prepared to use rationing to limit health care is to rein in the government's exploding health-care budget. Government now pays for nearly half of all health care in the U.S., primarily through the Medicare and Medicaid programs. The White House predicts that the aging of the population and the current trend in health-care spending per beneficiary would cause government outlays for Medicare and Medicaid to rise to 15% of GDP by 2040 from 6% now. Paying those bills without raising taxes would require cutting other existing social spending programs and shelving the administration's plans for new government transfers and spending programs.

Robert Rosencrans| 8.19.09 @ 7:23AM

Here's the info on the Democratic Health Care scheme and illegal aliens.

http://www.theurbangrind.net/?p=4247
If the administration and its Democratic allies in Congress are to be believed, illegal immigration is a non-issue when it comes to health care. In a recent interview with CBS News, President Obama insisted that any health care plan that becomes law will not provide insurance coverage for illegal immigrants, though he added that an exception would be made for their children. Similarly, Nancy Pelosi said last week that “illegal immigrants are not covered” in the America’s Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009, the health care legislation currently under discussion in the House.

Not everyone is impressed by these assurances. In a forthcoming study, Jack Martin, the director of special projects at the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), estimates that illegal immigrants cost federal and state governments some $10.7 billion in health care expenses annually – and that this number may well rise if some version of Obamacare is passed.

The problem, Martin figures, is in the fine print. Take the House bill. Although it does not explicitly cover illegal immigrants, Martin points out that neither does it “close loopholes for health insurance coverage.” Indeed, Democrats on the House Ways and Means Committee last month rejected an amendment by Nevada Republican Dean Heller that would have required the federal government to use the same database used to determine eligibility for welfare benefits to screen for citizenship as part of a government-run insurance plan. As a result, Martin told Front Page, “there is no system for the verification of identity, and the entitlement to receive those benefits. If that’s how the legislation ends up passing, we expect it to increase the outlays for health care services to illegal aliens.”

http://www.examiner.com/x-5919-Norfolk-Crime-Examiner~y2009m8d3-Illegal-aliens-will-be-covered-under-Obamas-healthcare-bill

About a week ago, the U.S. House Ways and Means Committee defeated an amendment which would have excluded illegal aliens from Obama’s massive healthcare bill. In addition to replacing our private healthcare system with a government-run program, many have argued that this bill is in fact, a ‘backdoor’ amnesty.

The Democratically-controlled committee voted 23-18 to defeat the measure introduced by Rep. Dean Heller (R-NV), which would have required the use of the existing Income and Eligibility Verification System and the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements System, before any care is given. This move would have ensured that only U.S. citizens would receive the taxpayer funded care.

While Obama has made claims that illegal aliens will not be covered by his plan, the following line can be found among the 1018 page bill: Sec. 59B, Pg. 170, Line 1 - “Any NONRESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes.”

Of course, illegal aliens taking advantage of the American taxpayer is nothing new.

Judicial Watch’s president Tom Fitton recently reported that Mexico directs their citizens who live in the U.S. illegally, to use taxpayer funded clinics in a dozen cities. The program is called Ventanillas de Salud (Health Windows), and is implemented in American cities which have Mexican consulates.

The government of Mexico has operated the program for some time. In 2007, Fitton wrote the following:

“Chicago, Houston, Los Angeles, San Diego and Indiana are among the cities where Mexican consulates operate the health referral system which annually costs U.S. taxpayers billions of dollars. In Los Angeles County alone, illegal immigrants cost taxpayers nearly $440 million in health services annually and a whopping $1.1 billion statewide.

Deborah D| 8.19.09 @ 7:25AM

Mr. Ferrara, thanks for your due-diligence on this most important issue. I no longer get my news from television or newspapers. I get my news from trusted websites like American Spectator. Your last sentence summed up our prevaricating president: "At this point, you can't believe a word he says about it." I'd only amend that statement...you can't believe anything he says (ever!) Not a good place to be only seven months into a four-year term. All I hear from him is what Charlie Brown heard from his teacher: wah, wah, wah.

Peter Skurkiss| 8.19.09 @ 7:33AM

So let me get this straight. ObamaCare would reduce Medicare by $500 billion (at a time when the Baby Boomers will start retiring) while allowing coverage for illegal aliens.

This is a shift of scarce health care resources from seniors citizens -- and I emphasize the word "citizens" -- who built the country and paid into the system for years to illegals.

But what do you expect. This is B. Hussein Obama's concept of 'social justice.' It is the natural extension of his Third World philosophy.

This sure is 'change,' but I somehow doubt it was the change millions of Americans had when they foolishly pulled the lever for this man last November.

Deborah D| 8.19.09 @ 7:37AM

Mr. Rosencrans, thanks for your postings as well. When you hear the term "un-American" from the likes of Pelosi and Hoyer referring to the townhall meeting opponents of Obamacare, and then you read what those two nitwits and their likes are doing to the American people through their sickening bill...you just have to ask -- who are the "un-Americans" in this scenario?

I wouldn't call them "un" -- I'd call them "anti" -- because they are doing things against the good of the American people instead of for the good. "Un" means not American, "anti" means against Americans. That's more the truth and becomes more obvious the more we find out about this behemoth bill.

2Anglico| 8.19.09 @ 7:39AM

Yeah, and Bill Clinton paid him a visit yesterday to continue his training in the Big Lie.

JP| 8.19.09 @ 7:56AM

The Leftists that run AARP are now paying for thier subservience to Obama. Over 60,000 members canceled thier membership during the last 4 weeks.

frost| 8.19.09 @ 8:19AM

Ummmm, he's lipped off about 'most everything, but, possibly, the most important, TORT REFORM.
But I guess we'll be in a mighty long wait 'til he suggests any such cost-cutting solution to the woes of our health care problems; he's in the pocket of the trial lawyers -- not to mention those contributors who stand to benefit most, Big Pharma the prime example....
Follow the money. Power-grabbing opportunities as well.

Michael Tomlinson| 8.19.09 @ 8:52AM

If Obama's lips are moving it is a good chance he's lying, but that's par for the course when talking about DemocRAT politicians. Whether it's honest radicals like George Miller and Barney Frank or Obama lapdogs like Jim Webb, Arlen Specter, Mark Warner and Mike Ross DemocRATS are "allergic" to the truth and even with their fab health care they refuse to give up for "Obamacare" there is no cure.

Frost is right without Tort reform and the defanging of DemocRAT shysters like John Edwards talk about reducing the cost of health care in the US is just more DemocRAT BS. Republicans should say NO to "health care" reform until Tort reform is passed. Attacking DemocRAT trial lawyers is a winning hand for Republicans in the health care debate.

Denver Todd| 8.19.09 @ 9:00AM

Colorado, where I live, does have a high-risk insurance plan available to all who want it, regardless of pre-existing conditions. I think there is an exclusion to pre-existing conditions for the first year though. It costs around $500 a month the last I looked, which is not that much more than what one find on the open market.

PolishKnight| 8.19.09 @ 10:06AM

It's clear Obama is lying through his teeth and leftists I know consider that business as usual. They believe that once they've won and converted the world to socialism, then we'll all be living in Sweden and Amsterdam. It doesn't make any sense, but that's what drives them.

I wonder if Obama has thought this out: If seniors lose their home equity and medicaid at the same time as Obama's plans take hold, what will 2010 be like? And for that matter, the next 20 years?

We're going to see the leftist religion put to the test: Will seniors happily drink the cool aid and become soylent green for the great socialist cause? Or will the third rail of politics finally be activated?

Papa Ray| 8.19.09 @ 10:20AM

So...the evidence is in, conclusions drawn without doubt, motive established and consequences are apparent.

So the question of the year is:

What (you as an individual) to do about it?

Well, you can do the same as I am doing and will do for at least the next three years.

1. Make every effort to get your friends, your family and your community informed and educated about this socialist president, his Marxist backers and his compliant idiot Congress.

2. Encourage letter writing, emails, protests and any other way you and others can think of to counter this takeover of America.

3. Denigate Obama, democrats and organizations such as AARP, Unions, left wing groups and anyone else that believes in Obama. This includes ridicule and simple things like bumper stickers, t-shirts and such.

The democrats and their Marxist backers have billions and are willing to spend it not only to hire thugs to counter our protests but run endless propaganda in our media and airways. We can and must counter those with our own propaganda. The republican party is not doing the job, you must pressure them to step up and do it.

The evidence is also becoming apparent that the republican party is no longer what it should be and is not the party for middle America which consists of not only conservatives but independent thinking moderates and millions of libertarians. So we have to make a choice between the devil we know and forming a new political party that will not only reflect our beliefs and demands but be able to garner the necessary votes to win.

Tough decisions and tough times. Are you up for it, can you recruit, lead and deliver? You enemies can, they have the overwhelming desire to grind you and people like you into the dirt and make America something that our Founders and our ancestors would not only detest but fight with their last breaths.

What say you? More important what will you do?

Papa Ray
West Texas

Pete| 8.19.09 @ 10:20AM

Read this for an example of what the government controlled media thinks (not so cleverly disguised as a news article).

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090818/ap_on_an/us_health_care_overhaul_analysis

This is what passes for news and what blind Americans read. Scary.

Tim| 8.19.09 @ 10:21AM

I wonder if the real "nuclear option" on the table is the Dems totally flouting seniors on Obamacare and hoping to ride it out in 2010 and beyond.

Appleby| 8.19.09 @ 10:25AM

If someone were putting on this Health Care (IT'S TWO WORDS, BY THE WAY) Dog and Pony Show at my university in the 1960s he would have been laughed out of town to go home and try again.

This whole thing is beginning to look more and more like a NA$CAR race on a high speed oval, only we are waiting for the gigantic crash with the full knowledge that there are no fences between us and the wreckage.

Let me out of here quickly.

Big Nan Antionette | 8.19.09 @ 10:30AM

Its so much fun watching democrats look down their noses at the "common people." Let them eat Astroturf!

Mean Sign Holder| 8.19.09 @ 10:35AM

Liberals in congress (and their cronies in the media) are all acting SO put out and defensive,,,and THEY control Congress! You could drive a truck through the hole in their plot!

Papa Ray| 8.19.09 @ 10:35AM

I forgot to mention something very important you can and need to do.

Go to Washington DC next month on the 11th or 12th and let your presence and voices be heard in the fight against those that would destroy our Republic.

I am going. I can't afford to go. I'm going in debt and hock to so so, but I'm going anyway.

GO...and encourage everyone you know to do the same.

Info here: http://912dc.org/

Papa Ray
West Texas

Robert Rosencrans| 8.19.09 @ 10:39AM

Although the White House took down the stool pigeon conduit, e-mail them and ask them if this passes their smell test for honesty and truthfulness. The White House has never been occupied by a more thieving lying group of liars, apparently including Michelle Obama. Maybe that's why her mother is allegedly practicing voodoo in the White House.
http://michellemalkin.com/
’ve reported several times over the last few months on Team Obama’s hefty funding from the health care industry/drug lobby — see here and here — as well on the deep pockets behind the Astroturf HCAN/SEIU/ACORN campaign.

Culture of Corruption also homes in on the cozy cash deals involving Michelle Obama, Valerie Jarrett, Susan Sher, and David Axelrod to create faux grass-roots support for the University of Chicago Medical Center’s patient-dumping scheme.

Now, Bloomberg’s Timothy Burger brings news about Axelrod’s latest health care conflicts of interest that will come as no surprise to those who have fully informed themselves of the Chicago way. While White House press secretary Robert Gibbs assails the motives of grass-roots activists by falsely smearing the movement as corporate-funded shills, Barack Obama’s own senior adviser and chief Astroturfer raked in millions of dollars from Big Pharma.

Two firms that received $343.3 million to handle advertising for Barack Obama’s White House run last year have profited from his top priority as president by taking on his push for health-care overhaul.

One is AKPD Message and Media, the Chicago-based firm headed by David Axelrod until he left last Dec. 31 to serve as a senior adviser to the president. Axelrod was Obama’s top campaign strategist and is now helping sell the health-care plan. The other firm is Washington-based GMMB Campaign Group, where partner Jim Margolis was also an Obama strategist.

This year, AKPD and GMMB received $12 million in advertising business from Healthy Economy Now, a coalition that includes the Washington-based Pharmaceutical Research & Manufacturers of America, known as PhRMA, that is seeking to build support for a health-care overhaul, said the coalition’s spokesman, Jeremy Van Ess.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/voodoo-in-obama’s-white-house.html
Kristen Atkinson, a blogger over at the Townhall website, has posted an article claiming Marian Robinson, the 72-year old first grandmother who lives at the White House, is practicing Santería, otherwise known as voodoo. A close friend of Michelle Obama says the president became furious at his mother-in-law.
featured stories Voodoo in Obamas White House
According to Atkinson, Marian Robinson became increasingly frustrated as her husband, Fraser Robinson, was hobbled by multiple sclerosis in the late 1980s, and turned to “Santeria in a desperate hope” to cure him. “Michelle put her foot down when she heard that her mother took her dad to ceremonies where they did spells and trances, and sacrificed animals, chickens and goats I think. But Marian was desperate and kept going anyway, even when her husband was to sick to go with her. I don’t think the president knew anything about this earlier because it was before they met. Michelle and Craig (her brother) wanted to close the book on this and never talked about it again after their father died in 1991.”

Kent Lyon| 8.19.09 @ 10:44AM

Obama to America: Trust me, I'm a government bureaucrat.

M| 8.19.09 @ 10:52AM

I don't know why we can't have high-risk pools specifically for pre-existing conditions, such as cancer or ADHD, as opposed to all medical care. After a certain number of years, perhaps 3, without claims, all or some of the pre-existing conditions would then have to be covered by a regular insurer. People with claims for their pre-existing conditions would continue in the high-risk pool until such time, if ever, that they did not have a claim for that condition in 3 years. Paying only for treatments for the pre-existing condition would lessen the costs for the high-risk pools as other care would be provided by regular insurance. For example, the high-risk pool might pay for treatment for sickle cell anemia, but regular insurance would cover a broken arm.

Warrior| 8.19.09 @ 10:54AM

If I am reading that tactics and strategy correctly, health care to the senior left leadership would be worth the loss of the significant majorities they have. The Blue Dogs are no more than sacrificial lambs and the senate is only looking for 50 votes in order to put it through. I believe the fact that the senate has not used reconciliation as of yet is telling. They will again try and pin this as the GOP stonewalling. Unfortunately for the statists, that argument doesn't work anymore. They have used the race card and the GOP party of no card so much it is has desensitized the majority of Americans to it. Maybe the entire congressional body can go and have a beer together.

Pete| 8.19.09 @ 10:59AM

You know...ever since that drinking promotion Obama did...he has caused or not prevented thousands of alcohol-related deaths....

Paul from SA| 8.19.09 @ 11:03AM

Peter, great article.

The contradictions, misinformation and downright lies coming from our president has my head shaking in confusion. Does he not think we have memories? Or that video recordings of his previous statements don't exist? Is he counting on the media to cover up his misstatements? Or does he just think we are stupid?

The illegal alien issue is huge. For some reason, people just don't want to talk about it.

gill.Oteen07041776@gmail.com| 8.19.09 @ 11:23AM

I think the first time I caught obumassiah in a lie was the first time I heard him talk last year. I think we should have a contest for just what is the biggest whopper he ever uttered. I’ll leave it to those more clever than I to determine a prize for this contest. Like Papa Ray, I’m a low-budget kind of guy, but I can offer the hand-held Gadsden flag I bought at a tea party and a few NRA bumper stickers to whomever sends me the obumah lie that I think is the best example. Just send your favorite to my gmail address, yes it’s valid, though many days I forget to check it. I promise that if the Berghof gets your email address, it will not be from me. The only thing they get from me is an upraised middle finger. I heard that Google scans all gmail, so be warned. I will use this American Spectator Comments Forum to post my top ten on September 1, 2009, though I am an old man who lost many brain cells as a result of a stroke last year and often forget myself, so I may need reminders. To qualify, all contest entries must be verifiable using the internet.

I think the biggest fabrication of the facts I ever heard from the blue-lipped genie is the following which he said last January 20: “I ... will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

Gill O’Teen ✝✡
gill.Oteen07041776@gmail.com
Don’t Tread on Me!!

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.19.09 @ 11:38AM

Gill, you already won the contest with that one.
Heh!
Did you happen to notice that he actually stumbled over the words in the oath?

Lullabys, Legends and Lies| 8.19.09 @ 11:41AM

Papa Ray: Hopefully this September 11/12th march on Washington D.C.,.. will turn into our own version of the 60’s Woodstock event (except with more bald folks)!!,.. but this time?,.. everybody?,.. just keep your cloth’s on!!,.. and no tripping on the Acid either!!,.. but maybe this will turn into something that nobody “ever” expected?,.. instead of 1,000 or 10,000 of us showing up that day (no big deal!!),.. maybe 1,000,000 of us regular “We the Mob” citizens show up instead,.. Oops!!,.. that’s Quite unexpected now isn’t it Senator Pelosi?,.. The Left and the Media?,.. They won’t know what to think,.. or what to say about something like that!!,.. the Left doesn’t think there’s anything going on out there in “middle” America,.. and that us “Sheeple’s”,.. are just going to keep doing what we’ve always done?,.. going about our business!!,.. going to work!!,.. raising our families!!,.. paying our taxes (so they can spend them on B.S.)!!,.. They won’t know what hit them!!,.. I’ve never been to a “Protest”, “Rally”, or “March” before,… in my entire life,.. sorry!!,.. but I was busy doing the “Good” Citizen Sheeple thing!!,.. but I’m going to be there on 12th September,.. and you can count on it!!,.. I may not really know what one’s supposed to do at an event like this?,.. but I’ll figure it out as the day goes along,.. I’ve had it!!,.. I’ve had enough!!,.. I’ve taken all I’m going to take!!,.. and I’m not taking anymore or it!!,.. I’m sick (and tired) of it!!,.. how about you?,.. Have you had enough of this?,.. are you tired of being robbed every week?,.. every year?,.. if you are?,.. put some gas into that CO2-Global Warming Car of yours,.. and join me & Papa Ray in Washington on the 11/12th September,.. but remember?,… don’t take the Brown Acid!!

And if I see you that day wearing Red White & Blue while hitching a ride on I-95 North,.. I’ll give you a lift.

Don't tread on me either!!

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.19.09 @ 11:47AM

Hi Paul

I don't talk about illegal immigration much because I find myself ambivalent there are SO many pros and cons in my own mind.

Having run a couple of international companies...one unformed thought keeps tickling around in my mind, though.

As you know, business men from all over the world visit here, all the time.
In many cases if they own their own multi-national company, (or are officers in same), they stay here for quite extended periods.

Could we somehow set these "guests" up as independent contractors, subject to all the laws and taxes we Americans pay?

Liberal Reader| 8.19.09 @ 12:46PM

I'm not sure people on the left OR the right understand what it does to public discourse when a president is accused of telling "lies" -- to say nothing of occasions when a president is called a "nazi" or a "fascist."

During the Bush term, I strongly urged other liberals to abandon claims that Bush had "lied" about the war. My fear was always that all of tend to identify with "our" president, and saying Bush lied was as good as saying to conservatives, "You lied, and next time we face a big decision, we're not going to listen to a word that you say."

This is enormously toxic, and conservatives, who since the late 60s have, despite the real power they wield in Washington, felt ignored, mocked, and slighted by the larger "culture," were extremely prone to seeing those criticisms of Bush as aimed at them personally.

I understand this, and I have always thought Democrats should -- whatever their criticisms of the war or anything else -- avoid those kinds of accusations.

I would urge people on the right to resist the temptation to characterize Obama as "lying" as well.

It is unmanly and weak to talk this way. In America, we disagree hotly and exuberantly with one another on many very fundamental questions. But who would have it otherwise? Does anyone really want a single-party state in total self-agreement?

No, let the disagreement thrive; let us fight until Doomsday over taxes, health care, and the rest of it. But the rhetoric that says to the other side, "You are the enemy; you are a traitor; you are a liar; you are evil" is deeply, absolutely, completely UN-AMERICAN.

gill.Oteen07041776@gmail.com| 8.19.09 @ 12:48PM

Oops, I demonstrated my mental incompetence and spread false information in my 11:23AM EST comment by stating that my stroke was last year. In fact it happened in October 2007. Underscores my assertion that I may need reminders. And Old Texican, as Judge, Jury, Prosecuting Attorney, Bailiff and Executioner I am not eligible to win the contest. I do, however, accept gratuities.

Gill O’Teen ✝✡
gill.Oteen07041776@gmail.com
Don’t Tread on Me!!

dcd| 8.19.09 @ 12:50PM

Obama isn't telling lies, he is simply continuing to follow the G.W. Bush teachings specifically "we create our own reality."

Liberal Reader| 8.19.09 @ 12:52PM

Fascist rhetoric -- and this is the essence of fascism -- does two things: a) it identifies scapegoats (often ethnic, religious minorities); b) it justifies any outrage in the name of fighting "socialism"; c) it posits a future in which all are unified in their agreement over what kind of government there is to be; i.e., it "purges" society of the unclean, the different, the foreign, and the subversive.

Fascism is always patriotic; it always elevates "virtue" over experience.

Liberal Reader| 8.19.09 @ 1:05PM

Democratic rhetoric, on the other hand, perhaps, can't count, and before one of you hoots for joy over my mistake, let me call attention to it myself, then fire away: for my point was not that fascist rhetoric does "two things" (a,b, and c) but that it does three.

Your play, and I deserve what's coming to me.

gill.Oteen07041776@gmail.com| 8.19.09 @ 1:28PM

Liberal Reader, your 12:52 PM comment is wrong but not because of a simple counting error. We are used to watching your fearless leader repeatedly calculate his numbers incorrectly and I certainly do not hold his minions to a higher standard. But I don’t recall that any ethnic or religious minority has been targeted by any of the conservative commentators here. Fighting socialism is what we do. We do not call everything we disagree with socialist. We do call obumassiah’s “spread the wealth”, soak the rich, and government control of everything brand of politics exactly what it is and it ain’t capitalism. As I recall The Fascists were allies of the Nazis. The derivation of the word ‘Nazi’ is from the German pronunciation of Hitler’s political party - in English The National Socialist German Workers’ Party. Note they were socialist members of a Workers’ Party. Sounds Communist to me. I am not interested in your life of despair and chains. I do want to live in a nation of free people who believe in the principles taught by The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States of America. Plus, your golden calf does lie. It’s even more a part of his character than it was a part of billy boy clinton’s. And recall that clinton was convicted of perjury. This is an important component of the current political debate. After all, how can we trust that a chronic liar is telling the truth for once? You are familiar with the children’s fable about the boy who cried wolf aren’t you? How can we trust anything the golden calf claims about the stimulus bill, saint sonia, cap and trade, health care or anything else when even vipers admire his forked tongue?

Gill O’Teen ✝✡
gill.Oteen07041776@gmail.com
Don’t Tread on Me!!

Liberal Reader| 8.19.09 @ 1:40PM

Gill O'Teen --

I'm glad you brought up some of these points.

1. Nazis were fascists. Like most totalitarians, they gave themselves a name that sounded nice to their rank and file, many of whom originally were lured out of workers' parties. Ideologically, however, Nazis were NOT socialists. Since when, by the way, do you take a Nazi's word for what he is?

2. I didn't say, in my post, that conservatives were specifically targeting ethnic minorities. I was distinguishing an actual characteristic of fascism from what is taking place in America today. (But, O.K., since you bring it up, there is sometimes a fascists tinge to anti-immigrant rhetoric and in some talk about other ethnic minorities, but that's largely on the margins of our society.)

3. The author of the Declaration would be disturbed to think of this country as being based on "the principle taught by The Holy Bible," but we all need to believe in something, and if you want to believe the founders were fundamentalist Christians, you can go right ahead. I don't have a dog in that fight.

4. The idea that Obama has a character flaw that leads him to lie compulsively like Bill Clinton seems to have had (A politician that lies! What a shock!) is simply not supported by any evidence. Again, you can believe what you believe: I don't care. My plea is for more adult and responsible political discourse on both sides. I see extremist, inflammatory rhetoric ERODING the ability of people like you and people like me, in our different ways, to dispute ideas and critique the government.

Liberal Reader| 8.19.09 @ 1:46PM

And by the way, Gill.

My point was not that Bush did NOT lie, and again, if you want to believe Obama has lied, that's fine.

My point was that it would be more responsible and decent and intelligent and effective and interesting and productive and -- yes -- more American to consider the effect calling someone a "liar" has on "the marketplace of ideas" that has allowed our republic to flourish.

We all tend to identify with certain political ideas; when their opponents call them "liars," or more absurdly, fascists, we take it to be referring to US.

That breaks down debate.

A debate is structured on the idea of trust and a mutually held sense that each side is arguing its points in good faith.

Without that element, all you have is a shout fest.

Now maybe that's what you want: maybe a debate just isn't the exciting blood sport you're looking for. You want to be entertained, after all, and it's your God given right to see someone thrown to the lions.

And more power to you. I'm looking for something different, and I think a great many others on both sides are two.

Paul from SA| 8.19.09 @ 1:47PM

Ken (Old Texican),

I support some type of controlled guest worker program, especially for agriculture.

When I say, 'illegal immigrant' I mean people who crossed our border and entered our country illegally, and have taken up residence, taken jobs normally reserved for young unskilled boys and men, and other men who, for whatever reason, need to start back at the bottom. When boys and men can't find work, when desperate, bad things happen -- delinquency, mischief, violence, theft, burglary, etc. I see groups of young men walking around with nothing to do these days, because all the unskilled jobs are taken by illegals. It did not used to be this way. Resentment is building. Anxiety is building. Desperation is building. Anger is building. Pretty soon, these boys and young men will find themselves in a similar position and mental state like poor men in the middle east countries. Bad things are brewing.

Our main community hospital in San Antonio is overun with illegal immigrants receiving free medical care. The media recently reported people are having to wait up to 24 hrs for service. Years ago, they reported 90% of people seeking emergency care are illegals. Now that Obama is president, they have stopped reporting about illegal immigrants, not just related to the hospital problem, but everywhere. It's taboo.

I could go on and on about all the problems associated with so many illegals now in our society, but today's subject is Obama's health care b.s.

Liberal Reader| 8.19.09 @ 1:50PM

correction: we all tend to identify with certain political leaders (and their ideas) ...

Liberal Reader| 8.19.09 @ 1:50PM

correction: we all tend to identify with certain political leaders (and their ideas) ...

Ryan| 8.19.09 @ 1:59PM

Lib Reader -

The problem, I think, is the emotional connotation at being accused a "liar," no matter its factual ability.

I consider Obama to have lied to the American people on a number of occasions (transparency, lobbyists, "change" with mostly DC insiders...). On health care, I don't know that he's lying so much as he may not really know the results of what certain legislation can bring. I don't think that he's considered the number of people who will be dropped from their employer's insurance because it's more cost-effective to be on any sort of public plan.

I think that he's among the MOST clueless of the left about how economics really works (Barney Frank may beat him out). I typically don't attribute malice when stupidity is an answer...but the President is on RECENT record as stating that he wants single-payer. It adds a bit of concern to what his real goals are.

So, if he's not lying, then he's an idiot about the whole thing. Honestly.

Al Adab| 8.19.09 @ 2:05PM

Old Tex, Paul, Gill et al

The President is foresworn as are most members of Congress. As Gill noted the oath is to defend the Constitution, not pursue social services, redistribute wealth, or pusue agendas.

Now we citizens must find ways to defend our Constitution against our government. Sadly that is dangerous ground.

The pursuit of such goals by government coercion is simply tyranny. In an "ends justify the means" world all of our liberties are at risk when outcomes trump law.

9-12 is approaching. Texican will be there and what about T.E.A.M. ? More the merrier, it worked for MLK.

Robert Rosencrans| 8.19.09 @ 2:22PM

Here's a little take on how Obama and his lying minions are deceiving the American public, including hiring members of the doofus class off of Craigslist to attend town hall meetings.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread491563/pg1
Ok so first we have the pro HC reform side claiming the anti side is busing in people to Town Hall meetings. Then we have staged Town Hall meetings where staffers lie to the people about the location/time/date of the meetings to stop the anti crowd from attending. The we have invite only town hall meetings. Then we have a little girl shamelessly used by her mother as a political tool. When it’s gotten worse….

Now we have a paid Obama staffer who was his Texas Delegate going to a Town Hall meeting in a district that she doesn’t live in an claiming that she is a GP and that as a physician she doesn’t see why people are upset because
I don’t know what there is in the bill that creates such panic,
.

She also claims she did it to give the cause more credibility. Ok so it’s now ok to lie in support of HC reform? How about committing a felony? Well that’s what she did, in Texas it’s against the law to represent yourself as a Doctor or Physician, so she lied and committed a crime for the cause.

You can report fake doctors at this website run by the Texas Gov't
oig.hhsc.state.tx.us…

Not only that but Obama’s campaign offices are using Graigslist to recruit paid individuals to be bussed to Town Hall meetings in support of HC reform. Want to make $500 a week, sign up. Of course I think you should ask to be paid in silver.

canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/13629

It’s a sad day in American politics when these tactics become common place, when people are willing to shaft there fellow Americans for a measly 20 pieces of silver, or so that they can belong to the “in” crowd. Read the bill then decide. I’ve read it and I think it’s not anything like what they claim it will be, which makes me think they have a second bill hidden away to swap out at the last second after everyone is done going over this one.

I give up these people make me sad and depressed. It’s time to make an appointment with the consular office and rescind my citizenship, because I’m tired of trying to save this country from the greedy and the dishonest. I don’t give America more than a few years left. To be honest I’m not even sure there is enough of the constitution left to salvage. The country of my youth is dead, the infection has spread too far and it doesn’t matter which party is running the show.

The Republicans and Democrats are like to children standing in a swimming pool of gasoline each holding a match and threatening to throw it at the other if they don’t get out of the pool. Listen guys, it doesn’t matter who throws the match, you both will die and so will a whole lot of other people. Put away the matches and clean out the pool, go back to our roots and get rid of the bloated maggot ridden corpse that gov’t has become.

Liberal Reader| 8.19.09 @ 2:26PM

Ryan --

I have a little difficulty distinguishing between the things you cite as "lies" and routine exaggeration.

What Bush a "liar" because he didn't turn out to be a "uniter"? Of course not. That was standard political rhetoric. When Obama promised transparency, he was promising something that is, in fact, very difficult to gauge.

If you want to believe Obama is "stupid," go right ahead. Again, I really don't care what you believe about Obama. In the end, you can join the Obama-is-Hitler crowd for all I care.

My concern is with the overall health of the public discourse of my country.

When political dissent takes the form of a demented sideshow of name-calling and obtuse shouting, it endangers the Republic.

I say this to people on the left and the right. But I'm done saying it here. I've said what I came to say.

Everly Waverly| 8.19.09 @ 3:01PM

Okay, Obama is a liar. His whole message is predicated on believability and with the resulting lack of his practical, "basic" knowledge of health care and especially economics you might as well listen to Jeremiah Wright. What would be the difference of the end-result opinion between the two? The biggest difference is the presentation of the message, one, Obama is seemingly reasoned and erudite, oh-so laced with smart pauses used to lull listeners into misdirection, the other is crude and a more to the point-message, laced with subliminal reparation rhetoric and militaristic threats, but the end-game result is the same, a Marxist America...

Liberal Reader| 8.19.09 @ 3:18PM

Everly,

Your post is bullshit. It's just sheer bullshit. I'd choose a more polite term, but I can't think of one that so precisely characterizes what you've written. I'll say it again: this stuff, that you've written, is plain bullshit.

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.19.09 @ 3:21PM

Robert, take heart, sir.

We are going to win this war. The worse things get, ironically, the bigger victory we shall win in reversing course in our country.

For several months, I personally watched dawn and the sun come up out my back picture window.

I must admit, my shoulders were slumped as I went round and round and round in my heart and mind. "What could "I" do to stop this disaster.

One morning last February, an an old Greek's idea tickled the back of my mind: "Give me a suitable lever and I can move the world."

...and there the lever was...right in my lap.
My partners and I are working feverishly building our fulcrum. Please stay tuned. We've got a running back spot reserved for you.

When we get the lever in place, you will learn of it here first.
Highest regards and God's speed

Truth to Power| 8.19.09 @ 3:38PM

"My concern is with the overall health of the public discourse of my country. "

"Your post is bullshit. It's just sheer bullshit."

Nice job.

Liberal Reader| 8.19.09 @ 3:42PM

Truth to Power --

What's your point?

I never said healthy political discourse was polite or some Polly-Anna soft talk. I only said that it had to be engaged in in good faith. Everly's post is riddled with baseless claims, including the notion that Obama is a "Marxist." If you want to criticize someone, criticise Everly.

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.19.09 @ 4:03PM

Well, I think Mr. Obama leans over toward Stallin more than toward Marx. (heh)
See, the essential difference I was taught between Socialism and Communism...is that Communism roared into power through violence, terror, and intimidation.
Mr. Obama has tried that here using the "Allinsky method." So far it hasn't worked. We are not a country of ignorant peasants.

Lib, you are living on the slopes of Vesuvius. It truly saddens me that you simply cannot or will not hear the impending eruption rumbling under your feet.
If in fact you are a paid propagandist, the lava will not be one bit more forgiving.

Ryan| 8.19.09 @ 4:12PM

Liberal reader,

I understand that you don't care what I think about Obama, but I do ask you to examine something.

There are SEVERAL situations that cause me to wonder that either the President doesn't know what he's doing or he's going at something with malicious intent.

Being a member at Jeremiah Wright's church was one - that he was there for twenty years and didn't agree with the pastor, or that he was a hypocrite in his membership and was there purely for political purposes.

The second is economics. A public option - as presented - either he cannot see that many people are going to be naturally forced out of their current health care or that he is planning for it to turn into a single-payer system.

There isn't much that CAN occur in the in-between many situations that I see him encountering. He either doesn't know what he's doing, or he's actively pushing us toward a leftist America and is telling us he's not.

You aren't happy with the base terms for this because of how they make you feel - "stupid" or "lying." How else AM I supposed to say it?

Truth to Power| 8.19.09 @ 4:25PM

I was just making fun of you for first lecturing on the health of public discourse and then breaking down. I never thought that I could have healthy discourse with you. Maybe when you grow up.

Liberal Reader| 8.19.09 @ 4:29PM

Ryan --

It's very important that you understand one thing.

I am NOT talking about my "feelings." I am only saying that when people resort to the most inflammatory extremes of political rhetoric, it tends to degrade public discourse.

I have before me a video of a woman shrieking "Heil Hitler" at a Jewish man in one of these town meetings, simply because he's extolling what he claims to be the virtue of Israel's socialized medicine.

This is insanity. It is moral insanity.

The Jeremiah Wright thing is just not an issue I know how to debate anymore. The black community has for centuries found political power in the church and the church alone, and you know what? Sometimes -- here's a big surprise -- black preachers say angry sounding things.

It's really no one's business where a man goes to church. If Sarah Palin wants to have magic spells said to her protecting her from witches, more power to her.

Obama, for reasons of his own, went to an inner city black church where angry and -- to my ears -- outlandish rhetoric sometimes spiced up the sermon. Good for him! Most preachers are a bore.

And what business is it of yours WHY he went to church. What are you, the inquisition?

You disagree with the public option? Fine. Disagree. But it doesn't mean Obama is a Nazi, and frankly, I don't see how it makes him a liar.

Many, many economists believe that medical costs will break this country unless they're brought under control. A public system works without needing to make a profit; it is inherently cheaper.

Look: 86 Democrats in the House voted for a single payer system when this process began. More conservative Democrats said they were unwilling to try to just force it on people. The public option is a compromise: a way of letting consumers vote with their premiums, as it were. If people buy into the public option and are happy with the outcome, why shouldn't the private companies go out of business?

The health care system is NOT intended to enrich insurance companies; it's intended to deliver health care.

As to your last point. If you want to argue that Obama is stupid, good fortune to you. You'll convince the convinced, but no one else.

Everly Waverly| 8.19.09 @ 4:52PM

Liberal Reader-

WOW!!! Needless to say I got your attention and needless to say you don't have much to say...

Ryan| 8.19.09 @ 5:00PM

Here's the problem with your take on the public option - it's not something that falls in the government's responsibility. You seem to assume that if it "works," it's because of customer satisfaction, when in reality it's going to become the ONLY option for some without a real free market in health care otherwise. Businesses will drop their insurance and just pay the penalty, leaving people at the mercy of the government rather than having a real open marketplace without government interference.

The problem of the lack of need for profit becomes a formula for overspending and loss of services to control spending. Private companies can offer more BECAUSE they have an incentive to offer more - more money in their pocket. If we had a real marketplace without government interference, then it would work. It doesn't because the marketplace is both under government regulation and corporatist.

I harp on Obama's religion because religious beliefs influence political ones...and if they don't, then the religion is useless and the person proclaiming them is not being truthful (lying). WHY he goes to church speaks to his character. It matters.

I DO agree that the Nazi rhetoric is harmful, simply because it always demonizes a position with exaggeration.

Bob| 8.19.09 @ 5:14PM

Lib.. I will assume you have turned over a new leaf....... and I will watch how long it lasts.

I have daily read thread after thread hi-jacked by someone with a similar name calling names and attacking everyone in vile and accusatory terms., doing anything but elevating the manner and level of discussions.

So if I am a little mistrusting of your desire to raise the level of discourse you will excuse my unbelief brought about by many previous exchanges.
However if you hold to the higher ground I will stand corrected.
For all of last year and more intensely since the day of change I have listened carefully to the words of the ONE and if he is not lying he has a serious memory problem or something is wrong with the teleprompter. I have on more than one occasion heard him say things directly at odds with known facts or frequently his own previous statements.
In the spirit of your new found higher level of interaction allow to observe that he has highly advanced memory defect relating to his previous statements and writings.
The original Bob

Liberal Reader| 8.19.09 @ 5:26PM

Ryan --

Your critique of the public option has two related but separate components. On the one hand, you say it would be bad economically, and on the other you say it makes the government do something it's not designed -- constitutionally -- to do.

I accept the validity of both of these arguments, and people with your views may very well prevail.

I am concerned about a few things:

1. I do not know of a modernized, industrialized society that has found "free market" solutions to medical care and costs. There is a reason why ALL of our allies, including Israel, France, Germany, England, Canada, and every other major, wealthy democracy in the world have some kind of government guarantee of universal healthcare.

Where is the country that does it all by means of the free market?

2. I don't think that the Constitution restricts the government to what it was in 1791. I don't think Medicare offends the spirit of the Constitution, and neither, evidently, do Republicans, none of whom will stand up and declare their party opposed to it.

So if Medicare -- a single payer system for people over 65 -- is Constitutionally sustainable for that group people, why isn't it permissible for everyone?

The VA is a system of "socialized medicine." That is, the government hires the doctors, runs the facilities -- everything. That works pretty well -- even for people who are no longer on active duty. Why is it not permissible for everyone?

Just so we're clear. I'm NOT for socialized medicine, but I do believe a single payer system would be best for everyone.

At best, what we're likely to get is a compromise that is much like the system in Switzerland (hardly a socialist country).

janet| 8.19.09 @ 5:29PM

Liberal reader could care less about open debate of issues. He just does not like the fact that Obama has been outed on many fronts. Whether you like him or not, whether you choose to defy logic and believe what he actually says, the point is that all Obama cares about is the ends. According to his playbook the means of getting to that end do not matter one iota and if he has to tell bald faced lies to get there, so be it. I have always believed that about him, however, I really thought he had SOME smarts but his track record truly does show that he got to where he is at solely on affirmative action. The gaps in his stated policy pronouncements on basic economics and how capitalism works is really scary. And this crowd called Dubya stupid?

Papa Ray| 8.19.09 @ 5:36PM

"I’ve had it!!,.. I’ve had enough!!,.. I’ve taken all I’m going to take!!,.. and I’m not taking anymore or it!!,.. I’m sick (and tired) of it!!,.. how about you?,.. Have you had enough of this?,.. are you tired of being robbed every week?,.. "

The above statement reflects my family, my friends and myself.

Let us all, from all over America take this dissatisfaction and anger to Washington DC next month on the 12th.

Arlington, VA is just a couple of miles from DC, it has Metro service (subway) that is cheap and will take you almost anywhere around DC. The Motels in Arlington are reasonable and have many great eating places.

We can do it, we can all go. All it takes is to say I will make it so, I and as many of my friends and family that can go will be there.

Make it so....!!

Papa Ray
West Texas

Liberal Reader| 8.19.09 @ 5:40PM

janet --

Your powers of insight are amazing.

You know my intentions and what I really "care" about. You know the secrets of Obama's soul.

How did you come upon this insight into our secret motives?

Everly Waverly| 8.19.09 @ 5:48PM

WOW!!!

I'm drawn to the notion that Liberal Reader is masquerading in multiple bodies "minds", is it possible he is suffering multiple personalities, shoe sizes, and an inability to choose a brand of peanut butter, the poor soul.

Charles Thomas| 8.19.09 @ 6:06PM

Just a thought...Does obama have an insurance refusal tax in store for the Amish or other religious sects that have always opted out of insurance for reasons of faith?

jr| 8.19.09 @ 6:11PM

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.19.09 @ 11:38AM
"Gill, you already won the contest with that one.
Heh! Did you happen to notice that he actually stumbled over the words in the oath?" --- and not to forget, blamed it on the Chief Justice (a Republican appointee). No teleprompter! In response to the poster Liberal Reader: Article yesterday saying that 6 more vets died, totaling 96 or 98 over a 6 year period from a cancer treatment - half of the studied group got too much and the other half got too little. That is reinforcement for Obama's boast that the VA system works well. That lie is about 4 or 5 days old. Want to see a VA doc for an injured shoulder? My neighbor got an appointment in for two weeks. It is a good thing he wasn't calling because he was dying from lack of oxygen. Many years ago my wife was air transported to Walter Reed from France where I was stationed. They would have killed her except that her parents pulled her out and took her to a legitimate doctor. Paid for by taxpayers. I am willing to help pay for health care for those who legitimately cannot afford it. I am not willing to pay for people who are not citizens of the US. If they are here illegally, even if applying for citizenship, they are on their own. Obama keeps referring to the 45 or 47 million people in the US who do not have health insurance. Do not believe it. Furthermore, you hear nothing about he and his leftist wife paying for health care for those who do not have it. Barney Frank and millionaire Pelosi contibuting to such causes? I don't think so. How about you Teddy and Soros, the great health care advocates - are you helping with your millions/billions?

Papa Ray| 8.19.09 @ 6:22PM

I just ran across this. Please take it and spread it around. It is not only disgusting but scary.

"Things are not always what they seem"

Papa Ray
West Texas

Sue| 8.19.09 @ 7:24PM

DCD: There's a big difference in trying to prevent the murder of another 3,000 Americans, and the President actually implementing social policies that will ration health care for all and end up killing thousands unnecessarily.

I'll take the fight with a evil dictator anyday over a misguided socialist.

Cow Rie| 8.19.09 @ 10:09PM

Well I get to follow the Bio Bigot Loon (he sounds like an Obama policy expert).. but here goes, back to heath care...

The JOKE is on us, as Ferrara points out, and again, it is time to brand Obama as the Joker.
The Obama Socialism Joker pic fits him to a T.
He uses fear and chaos to sell his creepy socialism.
The pic is great satire and it is time to BRAND Obama, marking the media eye candy as the devious creep that he is - the Joker. Contact me at cowrie666@aol.com and I will send the Obama Joker pic file. Don't post on private or government property. It is time to "change" the Obama brand to the Creepy Socialism it is - the health care Joker. ... cowrie666@aol.com

Blakeney| 8.20.09 @ 2:12AM

See Obama’s star sink down in the sky
Every dream he has spun is a lie
Here’s the one bitter lesson of Obama’s history
His soul should no longer remain a mystery
His many faces change
What you thought you knew grows ever more strange
And he has so many faces
His real self erases
With all those lies dancing in his empty eyes!

bluecollarbytes| 8.20.09 @ 8:38AM

It's clear the ObamaShow needs to be fought on every level of every issue. Don't expect it to Ever moderate its positions. It will only detour around obstacles, feigning moderation as it steadily marches leftward. What else does a community organizer know? "We" may have elected a mystery man as president, but there's no mystery whatsoever on what his goals are.

gene hauber| 8.20.09 @ 12:21PM

whenever our "esteemed" shitspot in the oval office uses the phrase "let me be very clear about this...", clarity is the LAST thing he offers. what you get in his following words is the boldest of bold faced lies. his legacy should be:
I AM THE "MESSIAH", I LIED AND LIED AND LIED TO THESE PEOPLE AND THEY DID NOT BELIEVE ME ARE AMERICANS THAT STUPID?
hey pal, ACORN believes you....that definitly is enough for the TRUE Americans.
I REFER TO YOU AS THE SHITSPOT BECAUSE THE "N' word is passé, but it certainly describes you and your cohorts to a "t".

Health Savings Guy| 8.21.09 @ 8:22PM

Our president speaks with forked tongue.

Thanks Peter, for an outstanding job of enlightening those of us who care enough to try and learn the truth.

One has to wonder, given how far-flung his comments are from reality, whether our Harvard Law educated president has even bothered to read the bill(s). If he hasn't, he has no right to comment on them as salesman-in-chief. If he has, and still misrepresents them, then shame on him.

Sadly, I presume it's a little of both. That clip circulating around the net wherein candidate Obama discloses his admiration of a government-run health care system and his disdain for insurance companies, is most telling.

I am now of the opinion that this president is willing to lie, steal, cheat, and misrepresent the truth in any manner he sees fit in blind pursuit of his own selfish, albeit unenlightened goal of nationalized health care.

As president, however, he has a DUTY to TELL THE TRUTH.

But why abandon health savings account plans? If more people had a health savings plan, the hole we have dug wouldn't be nearly so deep.