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Reader Mail
Putting Words in His Mouth
(Page 3 of 3)
Mark, thank you for this great article on President Bush. As a
lifelong Methodist from a long line of Methodists (ancestors were
organizing Methodist congregations as they came West in Ohio in
the early 1800's and in Kansas in the 1850's), I am embarrassed
and saddened that there was not a UMC in the DC area where
President and Mrs. Bush felt welcome. I hope they were sent a
copy of your article.
-- Glenda Gay
Denver, Colorado
CONFLATED ARGUMENTS
Re: Geoffrey Norman's letter (under "Newsflash: Politicians
Dissemble") in Reader Mail's
Might As Well Have Said It:
I did not say Mr. Norman was a "neo-isolationist." I said Churchill's alleged remark that America should have stayed out of World War I was "a favorite of neo-isolationists over the years." The point is not America's entry into World War I, on which reasonable people can disagree. The point is: get your quotes right!
A frustration for students of Churchill is the plethora of
quotations ascribed to him which he never said, some of which he
specifically denied -- like this one. Well, Mr. Norman
prevaricates, if he didn't say it "he might as well have."
There's no way to answer such obfuscation. If someone wants to
believe the founder of the National Enquirer, despite
profuse evidence to the contrary, there's nothing I can do to
help.
-- Richard M. Langworth, CBE
http://richardlangworth.com
Editor, The Churchill Centre
Comments
Leave a Comment
Sheryl| 4.16.09 @ 10:41AM
Mr. Chiarello,
You were surprised that virtually no "Catholics" knew what a Tenebrae service was? Try your experiment with virtually any element of what was once the Catholic Church. Some sample questions: Do you pray the Angelus? How about the Regina Coeli? What is the Magisterium of the Church, and why should you care? What is Septuagesima? Passion Sunday? I think you get the point. What many many Novus Ordo Catholics know or understand about the Chruch they allege to belong to could fit on the head of a pin. To many people, the teachings of the Church are that everybody should be nice to each other, and maybe you should schelepp yourself to church once in a while if you feel like it.
The ignorance of post Vatican II "Catholics" is sadly on display everywhere these days, nowhere more pathetically than in the last presidential election, or the choice of commencement speaker at the once Catholic Notre Dame.
Our Lady weeps for her children.
Appleby| 4.16.09 @ 11:18AM
My Methodist mother knows what Tennebrae is; we attended it annually in the Methodist church when I was growing up.
In 1992 I went to music camp to sing the Haydn [i]Harmoniemesse[/i] and almost everyone under 40 who was there had never sung a Latin Mass and therefore missed the entire point of the [i] Harmoniemesse[/i] which is scandalously funny to those who have. Since the session was so popular that attendees were chosen by lottery, I can't imagine how ignorant the masses were that were NOT chosen.
David Govett| 4.16.09 @ 1:54PM
** Seal of Disapproval **
Four pirates threaten on the sea.
A Seal's bullet; now there are three.
Three pirates yet; a motley crew.
Hot lead leaves Seal; now there are two.
Perhaps the end is evident.
Pirates to hell will be Seal-sent.
Rocco| 4.16.09 @ 6:14PM
I echo Mr. Chiarello's and Sheryl's sentiments. Sad indeed. But, it appears that the church of Vatican II is dying a long, slow death.
Signor Chiarello, given your location, you must attend Mass at St. Athanasius. A wonderful little parish. I have attended there off and on over the past 12 years, whenever duty brought me back to the DC area. Fr. Ringrose is a no-nonsense priest of the old school.
Pax vobiscum!
Alan Brooks| 4.16.09 @ 10:09PM
the plummeting isn't the Church's fault, the flaw lies with a society that does what it wants on Saturday night, then goes to Church on Sunday. Not all churchgoers have been and are like that but many are and it has dissolved not only the piousness of the Church but also the society the Church floats precariously on.
Have you gone out of your offices recently to look at 'society'?
Alan Brooks| 4.16.09 @ 10:14PM
and BTW, don't blame just homosexual pedophiles in the Church but also the hetero-philes as well.
More than one heterosexual child molester exists in the Church to this day. The laws of statistics make such a certainty.
John| 4.16.09 @ 10:21PM
The teachers, Priests, Bishops, Archbishops, and Cardinals were exactly the same five minutes before Vatican II and five minutes after the event.
The Laity was the SAME... from that one Sunday where the priest mumbled into the alter, in a foreign dead language that he spoke poorly if at all, with his back turned to a disinterested, indifferent but brow beaten congregation... morphed into a Prayer led by a Priest, engaged in his congregation in a language that they could understand, identify with, and participate in.
Hum... radical yes, but negatively transformative... not hardly. Vatican II was the revelation and life's work of John XXIII. His desire was to bring the beauty of the Mass to the people and bring them into the celebration.
Gee I remember when the Priest was actually called the Celebrant.
I was born into a Latin Church. It was stilted impersonal, disconnected, and the people in the pews focused on the Rosary, the occassional time to genuflect, make a hand motion... beat their breasts... make the sign of the cross... whatever... it was an OBLIGATION.
You went, whether or not you wanted to, whether or not you had your heart in it. You went because it was expected. However in our desire to find blame, we forget that many middle aged men who didn't attend Mass. I remember a childhood in Masses attended by old people, and mothers with children.
Vatican II didn't bring this. Look at what has the Anglican/Episcopal Church, the Methodists... the Lutherans... you name it. The drop off in attendence had and has nothing to do with the Mass in English with God at the center of the celebration, instead of in some artifically determined direction.
We lose ourselves in minutae. We get deflected by symptoms that we mistake for causes. Vatican II constituted critical liturgical reform.
It is we, as a society, who have left the pews. We have abandoned religious worship, belief, and foundations, and Vatican II is not responsible for that.
My surmise is that without Vatican II the church would have lost more people. As it is, Vatican II defines the Roman Catholic Church. If you don't believe that... then congratulations, you are a Protestant.
Blessings to those who keep the faith, despite the challenges. Peace.
John
Joe Murray| 4.17.09 @ 8:39AM
The fact of the matter is that the Office of Tenebrae was abandoned in 1977. But the special rubrics of Tenebrae that once accompanied the celebration of Matins and Lauds, including the ceremony of extinguishing the candles, are now sometimes applied to other celebrations, even if these do not consist of a nine-psalm Matins and a five-psalm Lauds.
This may one reason Vincent Chiarello survey of Catholic individuals were unaware of what he was speaking of. The Church in this case has moved on.
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