The American Spectator

Michael L. Hauschild| 2.18.09 @ 7:00AM

Want to lead America back to prosperity Peter? You have to start somewhere and here is something we need to address first.
One of the greatest abandonment of principles in the history of our Nation has just occurred in the Senate. Spector, Collins and Snowe, knowing full well their votes held the key to a filibuster, could have given the Senate body and their constituents the ability (and both the right and promise I might add) to examine the “Stimulus.”
The RNC and their new chair should advocate the denegation of these three to rank and file, remove them from all committee positions and body functions other than the simple “one vote only” their states electorate has bestowed. These three, with their contemptuous beltway definition of “bipartisanship” have bartered away trillions of dollars, a crushing tax burden that will break the backs of the taxpayers for the next generation. We have finally reached the welfare saturation point. No longer can the taxpayer, even given the economic viability of a capitalistic democracy, support the government dole. The beltway, with the advocacy and the “rush to judgment” of Snowe, Collins and Spector, is printing “Monopoly Money” to fund political favor and enhance incumbency. This blatant purchase of voters is the only transparent aspect of the bill.
The GOP should not wait till 2010 to dust off the “Remember the Maine” and the “Spector of Defeat” anthem. Had it not been for those three a filibuster could have been mustered and given everyone time to take a long look at the affront to democracy, disenfranchisement, and impending tax burden this “Contract with Socialism” imposes.

Rocco| 2.18.09 @ 7:00AM

As I said before the election, the Republicans (I am not one, by the way) were handed a "target rich environment" which they were too damned stupid to exploit. By the looks of it, they still haven't learned. Here is another instance of being handed an issue for which they could devise a fiscally responsible, common sense solution, and they appear to be clueless. Heaven help us!!

Rocco| 2.18.09 @ 7:01AM

Mr. Hauschild: I couldn't agree more.

Jeremiah| 2.18.09 @ 8:00AM

Folks,

This is textbook econ 101. If you want to spend during a recession, give to the poor, not the rich.

The rich SAVE in bad times. The poor SPEND.

That's called "stimulus." It's what we're looking for.

All this talk about the evils of "welfare" has an uncanny Lee Atwater ring to it.

Remember: he repented.

Bill O'Stalin| 2.18.09 @ 8:25AM

Welfare reform is just another way that capitalists control the masses. It's far better to amass power by supplicating the masses to the deceptive hand of a government hand out, which is always there, as opposed to an employment opportunity, which may not always be there.

By deluding the public into believing they are getting something for nothing, when in actuality, they are being turned into societal zombies, you take power from the simpletons and amass the power unto yourself.

As an avowed Communist who holds no earthly possessions save my access to public libraries to post on the internet, I find the concern over the government amassing power to be quite amusing.

All governments desire power, but a wise electorate holds it back from them. When the public education system is controlled by a group of self serving political embodiments like public service unions, it's in their best interest to turn out misinformed morons who become the voters of tomorrow.

In the long run, the new splurge on welfare will create many new slums, as citizens who are given empowerment through entitlements suddenly no longer believe in self worth. They derive their self worth from government cheese and as long as the government hands out that government cheese, there is no other purpose to which they must ascribe.

In short, everyone becomes equally entitled to the free cheese motif until that paradigm no longer is feasible. Then the politically powerless, which is what the public becomes when they become supplicants, must take whatever is handed out. Soylent Green.

Todd| 2.18.09 @ 9:00AM

For all the talk of Obama being a centrist and doing "what works", this provision in the "stimulus" bill shows exactly his radical left-wing agenda that most of his here knew was coming. Welfare good and corporate profits bad like a true socialist. Bill has it exactly right, he calls himself a communist but it sounds like a personal decision for himself and not support for an authoritative government. I would assume the Stalin name is used as a joke.

How did I know Jeremiah would post on the virtues of increasing welfare and how good it is for the economy. Rather pathetic and nobody gives a damn about Lee Atwater. Lets see if Bob has anything to enlighten us on the subject. He made the claim last week that only Obama can reform the entitlement system and balance the budget, that is beyond idiotic. Like one of Reagan's famous quote, that idea is so stupid that only an intellectual could believe it.

Ryan| 2.18.09 @ 9:05AM

Jeremiah,

What's better - giving a poor man a job or a check? That's what this boils down to.

Here's the question, simplified: Is it better to use 10 million dollars off of a company's taxes so that they can hire a few hundred people to go to work for a lifetime, or to send thousands of people a check that they'll spend only once, and then need money AGAIN next month?

Is it better to put money in the hands of people who are successful in making that money grow, or in people who waste it away (I'm talking about the entire spectrum of rich to poor here, including the idiots at the top who brought a lot of this mess upon us - they don't need any more money to waste).

Jeremiah| 2.18.09 @ 9:40AM

Ryan --

Your questions would be much more pertinent IF the people who control the wealth in this country WERE in fact "good at" what they do.

However, as the last two years have shown, they are NOT.

Corporate culture has degenerated in the past three decades. Where once the wealthy at least had a sense of civic obligation, they are now motivated only by short term gains.

The system is completely rotten. If you don't see that, I might as well be talking to the wall.

The best thing the government now can do is engage in demand-side economics. The market can heal itself that way without completely decimating the middle class.

Ryan| 2.18.09 @ 10:14AM

You're actually arguing my point. We shouldn't be bailing out the companies who were screwing up, we should be lowering the taxes of the companies and people who are doing the right thing with their money. We should be giving companies who are doing the right thing the ability to hire people and place them in the middle class. We should NOT be giving handouts to bankrupt companies and bankrupt people.

I'm going to ask the question again: Is it better to use 10 million dollars off of a company's taxes so that they can hire a few hundred people to go to work for a lifetime, or to send thousands of people a check that they'll spend only once, and then need money AGAIN next month?

Dustoff| 2.18.09 @ 10:24AM

Jeremiah
IF the people who control the wealth in this country WERE in fact "good at" what they do.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So you mean to tell us the Gov is better? Did you forget the problems that both Barney Frank and Chris Dodd ingored when the home lending was going south from 2001 to now? plus driven by government ideas?

Have you looked at Japan and it's banking problems with the gov running it.

Dustoff| 2.18.09 @ 10:27AM

Jeremaih
Corporate culture has degenerated in the past three decade+++++++++++++++++++++

So we should follow the ethics of governement?
PLEASE, you cannot be that stupid!

JP| 2.18.09 @ 10:46AM

Jerimiah,
Giving "the little guy" some extra cash has never gotten any nation out of a recession. Especially now, when it is very likely the "little guy" will go to WalMart and spend his money. The Chicoms I'm sure will be happy.

Secondly, there was absolutely no debate on this part of the bill; it was slipped in the night before the House voted. What it does is remove the fixed lump sum amounts states recieve for Welfare, and resort to the pre-1996 no limit open ended sum (The Fed pays 80% of all welfare costs). If the Federal goverment wasn't allowed to run defecits, taxes would have to go up -that is Wellfare would just be plain income redistribution. Now, we will just borrow it and worry about funding Welfare later.

Ironically, the Dems controlled this issue in 1996. It was the Democratic Minority (46 seats) that a)ended the filibuster, and b)crossed over to the GOP side to offset a Clinton veto. Avoiding a public humiliation, Clinton signed the bill into law (and subsequently too full credit in reducing the Welfare rolls 80%).

Marc Jeric| 2.18.09 @ 10:52AM

We should stop reading Jeremiah's invectives - he is an old-time bolshevik. As to the banking CEO's, they did what prudent bosses had to do under threats of fines and prison if they did not give mortgages to "underserved minorities" - they bundled 90 good mortgages with 10 welfare mortgages and passed this new "derivative" security to Fannie and Freddie. These two financed re-elections of their close buddies Dodds and Frank (when I say "close" I am thinking of Frank's male lover there).
Abu Hussein from Kenya and his coterie of White House marxists and ACORN brownshirts are a national nightmare.

Dustoff| 2.18.09 @ 11:15AM

Marc J

Yeah it's odd isn't it. Since 2001 they have been talking about the Fanne & Freddie mess that would be coming. But man-o-man them dems made darn sure "nothing" was done to fix this . Instead the ones to brought this up were insulted. and called liars.

tonypal| 2.18.09 @ 12:11PM

Jeremiah:

Actually, the facts show that it's the poor who engage in non-stimulative activity, such as paying down personal debt. That's what happened last year when we tried a much smaller stimulus package.

Throwing chump change at people has failed miserably in the past. The only way an individual can truly be free and have a sense of self respect is to have a job. Last I checked, no one has ever gotten a job from a poor person.

Greedy capitalist like to make money by investing money, which leads to job creation. It doesn't take much to figure that out, yet this concept continues to elude you. Perhaps you have a future as an Obama economic advisor, but only if you've failed to pay your taxes.

Anthony| 2.18.09 @ 12:32PM

Don't you just love these leftist trolls who denounce what they do not comprehend? So, the "corporate culture" is the villlian eh? As if Jeremiah and his fellow do-nothings would actually know something about it. Our's is a $14 T economy, all created by the "corporate culture" of America, both large and small. Yes, I'm part of the corporate culture, as I sure are most of the posters at TAS, that's because we risk our capital every day and create jobs for others. It's easy to be a leftist government hack and take & re -distribute other people's money, that's what leftists live for, and their useful idiots will play along for the crumbs that get dropped.

Robert| 2.18.09 @ 12:58PM

Oh yes there IS another reason why this outrage was rammed through Congress. Nothing to do with expanding access to ill-begotten money for the indolent. It's about POWER and it has Rahmbo Emanuel's fingerprints all over it. For the same reason motor voter, immigration reform, amnesty for illegals and tax cuts to those who pay none. Dependency. More dependency equals more power and the almighty VOTE.

With this bill the left has cemented itself into power. Remember that, residents of Maine and Pennsylvania when you next consider pulling the lever for your lying, thieving Senators Spector, Collins and Snowe! Not only have they stolen your future. They have stolen the future of the entire country. Your kids will thank you, too, when their bill comes due!

stmichrick| 2.18.09 @ 1:54PM

Jeremiah, your twisting of common sense and common knowlege boggles the mind.

How many 'poor' folks have you worked for?
The rich INVEST.

WHEN will we have prominent, fearless conservative elected officials who can articulate and counter this re-invigoration of the PALMS-UP (formerly Great) SOCIETY?

stmichrick| 2.18.09 @ 1:54PM

Jeremiah, your twisting of common sense and common knowlege boggles the mind.

How many 'poor' folks have you worked for?
The rich INVEST.

WHEN will we have prominent, fearless conservative elected officials who can articulate and counter this re-invigoration of the PALMS-UP (formerly Great) SOCIETY?

Jeremiah| 2.18.09 @ 2:29PM

Too many good comments to respond individually to each.

Some general points:

Supply-side economics generally work OK when the markets are functioning properly. In times of recession and massive corruption and incompetence (like now), the principles just don't hold up to reality.

Capitalists are NOT investing. This is the whole problem. They probably will not invest until they're sure government largesse is at an end. One of the reasons for the staggering size of this package is to send the message that this is the last train leaving the station.

SOME business tax cuts are stimulative and that's why they're included in this package.

Unemployment insurance and food stamps are HIGHLY stimulative. This is not a theory; it's fact.

In general, one of the most stimulative actions a government can take is on medical care of elderly persons. The second most stimulative is on measures such as unemployment payments; the third is infrastructure construction and repair.

Jeremaih| 2.18.09 @ 2:33PM

It's all very well and good to sit around merrily discussing the evils of "socialism."

In reality, the only socialism that exists in the United States is for the benefit of the one percent of the population that controls fifty percent of the country's wealth.

If you're middle class, you are complete masochist if you enjoy this state of affairs.

Tax and spend liberalism seeks to redress this disparity and make the economy work for middle class people, rather than the other way around. Demand side economics is simple fairness.

JP| 2.18.09 @ 2:44PM

"Unemployment insurance and food stamps are HIGHLY stimulative. This is not a theory; it's fact. "

Yes, where I live, the Smokes For Less, the Buy Lotto Tickets Here, and Bob's Barn of Booze are all thriving.

Robert Rosencrans| 2.18.09 @ 2:58PM

Think it over. You build houses but there's a glut of housing available and Obama is in the process of nationalizing housing. Why bother to build houses and take that risk anymore? Result: Massive unemployment in the housing sector guaranteed. Housing prices will fall which will dry up taxes leading to layoffs of public service employees.

You build cars but there is a glut of cars and sales have dropped from a capacity high of 17 million to an iffy 10 million a year. That means you're just about cut in half, yet you go to a willing government who wants to "keep you around." Result: Millions stay employed in an industry where products are no longer being moved. Corporate/public welfare.

You make loans but the government is now taking over the risk part of the loan process so why would you make loans anymore? If the borrower screws up, you are headed to a process where your equity of the principle will be wiped out and there is a 60% chance the borrower will default again. Result: Interest rates will either skyrocket or the dollar will devalue wiping out the wealth of millions of taxpayers who will then turn to the government for their bailouts.

You attack the best health care system in the world from two fronts. All records are placed into a digital data bank the government will control. Standards will be set up to determine who will get what health care. That is, if there is any health care. Why go to 12 years of school to become a government employee and have your income dictated by "cost" concerns? Result: Health care will become another crippled industry in the sense it will have to be rationed. A government employee will determine if you are "worthy."

In a few short weeks Obama has taken steps to wreck the economy and whose effects will be observable soon enough. The Obama supporters are cherring, but soon their employer will be closing down, not able to stand up to the onslaught of government takeovers of industry after industry. It's better to shift the risk to the government and just shut it down.

stmichrick| 2.18.09 @ 4:45PM

Jeremiah; guaranteed 'simple fairness' has an inverse relationship with growth and creation of wealth for ANYBODY.

I'm not wealthy but have no desire to eliminate the possibility of it for me or anyone else. That is what Obama's 'change' is about.

So Jerry, events are starting to overtake you and the leftists that welcome this regime. I did not think so at first but now I have the Audacity of Hope that this guy's gonna be a one termer.

JeffW| 2.18.09 @ 5:00PM

Jeremiah,

You stated "One of the reasons for the staggering size of this package is to send the message that this is the last train leaving the station. "

Apparently you haven't hear the talk of Stimulus Package # 2. This was not the last train unfortunately.

Interloper| 2.18.09 @ 5:35PM

Apparently, there is some alternative universe in which unemployment is not near eight percent, more massive layoffs have not been announced, more companies have not filed for bankruptcy and the housing market is not simultaneously decimated and frozen. It is where most of the participants in this thread are posting from. Either that, or they are just mindlessly reciting the nonsense they hear on talk radio and FOX.

With unemployment and food scarcity at their highest in decades, the most timely aspects of the stimulus package are funding of extended unemployment benefits and food stamps. Next is the expansion of children's health care so that we don't have to cover problems that could have been prevented down the road, such as failures to immunize.

It cannot be said too often: Funds for the low and middle-income will be SPENT. The effect will be to stimulate the economy, and, create and maintain jobs providing the services and goods their money will be spent on. These classes will spend the money because they don't have any other way to meet their basic needs.

An irony of this sort of site as that many of its denizens, despite their identification with the far Right, are poor or lower middle-class. They will benefit from the very stimulus package programs they are criticizing. I recall that the Right Winger who shot up a church a few months ago, gunning for liberals, was about to lose his food stamps benefits. Folks like him just don't get it.

Truth to Power| 2.18.09 @ 7:15PM

The Interloper should get his good-deed doing money from Democrat bag men Madoff and Stanford. Whoops it is all gone. I have heard Democrat lame promises over the years and don't believe any of them are the slightest bit concerned about the poor. I am sure a few crums will be thrown their way as the rest of the "plan" adds to their numbers. The Interloper offers the hope of the Soviet Union.

Ben| 2.18.09 @ 8:34PM

socialism is shared misery. The only reason the poor vote democrap is because misery loves company. If we're all poor we won't feel like we're better or worse than anyone else. We will be easier to control once the government becomes our provider. They will reward capitulation and punish dissidence with our basic necessities.

Jeremiah| 2.18.09 @ 8:38PM

Jeff W

I haven't heard any mention of another stimulus package -- except for baseless speculations on Rush Limbaugh's show.

But Limbaugh is not a journalist or a politician. When I see it proposed by someone who actually has the power to propose it, I'll respond then.

Until then, I'll respond to the facts as we have them.

stmichrick| 2.18.09 @ 9:41PM

Jeremiah; "Baseless speculation on Rush Limbaugh's show?"

You tipped your hand...try listening some time.

I can understand disagreement...the patent dismissal gives you away.

DaveinPhoenix| 2.18.09 @ 10:03PM

This is how a Democratic congress traps otherwise decent Americans into poverty while also creating a permanent electorate... Poverty stricken slaves to their government. Well done, hope they're proud of themselves.

Alan Brooks| 2.18.09 @ 10:31PM

intergropen,

i'm poor and free would rather stay that way than be rich and enslaved. only the truly gifted ought to be rich-- if you and i, intergropenfuhrer, had what it takes we'd be writing at AS, not commenting. and that Bill O' Stalin library troll should stay that way forever. please do!

Alan Brooks| 2.18.09 @ 10:40PM

geesh it is starting already-- the Commies are coming out oif the woodwork!

Alan Brooks| 2.18.09 @ 10:41PM

Bill O Stalin! what a moniker!
but the commies are right about just one thing-- Hell IS a place on earth.

ruth| 2.18.09 @ 11:17PM

Like all good commies, Groper and Jeremiah don't love money as much as they love power. Obomber is all about the consolidation of power.

Kathy| 2.19.09 @ 8:00AM

As far as I'm concerned, as long as the bulk of the media is skewed to the left, it doesn't matter what Republicans think or want-it simply won't get out to the public.

Ryan| 2.19.09 @ 8:57AM

My question STILL remains unanswered.

Is it better to use 10 million dollars off of a company's taxes so that they can hire a few hundred people to go to work for a lifetime, or to send thousands of people a check that they'll spend only once, and then need money AGAIN next month?

Food stamps are stimulative, that's a given. I'm not arguing the point. However, is it more stimulative to give a person food stamps or to lower taxes on a company to give that person a job? I don't hear that question being asked from the left - all I hear are short-term solutions, not long-term ones.

Also, did the welfare system fail as it had been working since the '96 revamp? What was wrong with it that it had to be changed in such a manner?

What's the problem with the wealthy having the most money, if I live comfortably off of a middle-class income? Why should I care?

Interloper| 2.19.09 @ 3:38PM

It is ironic that the Right Wing Republicans whine that the stimulus package will have a permanent effect on entitlements out of one side of their mouths, and, that the effect is temporary out of the other. Peter Ferrara is throwing a massive hissy fit over a non-existent plan to permanently increase entitlements while reactionary governors are complaining the stimulus package increases are temporary. Guess they missed each others memos.

Kathy, 'the Republicans' is a misnomer. Most Republican governors are backing the Obama administration on the stimulus package, some very openly. They know those funds are needed with record unemployment and large state deficits. The perspective one gets at a site like this is very out of touch with reality. You need to go and read the mainstream political news.

Ryan, I suspect thoughtful people ignore you because you don't really ask questions. You reel off Limbaugh talk show rhetoric and whatever the latest droppings of moonbats like Ferrara happen to be. (For example, his claims that the stimulus package is an effort to increase 'welfare' and that the GOP could profit presently by demanding welfare reform are baseless and just plain loony.) Your inability to think analytically or separate opinion from fact makes it rather pointless to engage you.

Bill Hussein O'Stalin| 2.19.09 @ 4:08PM

Thanks for all the offers I received to give me some money, but true Communists never take money or desire possessions. If you look at the Stimulus the tax cuts are deceptive, accounting for only 22% in actual tax cuts. That means about $640 billion or so is a direct heist from the private sector. Wouldn't that $640 billion have provided just as many jobs in the private sector? Therefore what's the point of this bill other then to provide the anointed one an excuse to mount his taxpayer financed jet (By the way when he flys there's always a backup plane in the air also-Talk about a carbon waste) and consolidate his political power in the Midwest where he's weak. It just gets back to the old adage, he's buying your vote with your money.

Ryan| 2.20.09 @ 11:30AM

Interloper - yeah, they're a bit argumentative. However, I don't see how they are still yet illegitimate questions.

We believe that jobs - true productive work that produces long-term income - is the answer and that money is better used in the hands of the industries and companies that people need to work for. I don't see how a short-term investment creates those jobs. Yeah, it may pay for whatever is on the store shelf right now and feed a man for a little while, and the money goes into someone else's pocket (probably more likely offshore as cheap, mass-produced items that lower income people buy) and supposedly around and around...but how long can that last if a man can't do it over and over and over again because he doesn't have work?

Do you even understand the argument from our side? Do you even see our point? Have you even considered the questions I asked, rather than dismissing them out-of-hand as me trying to argue my point?

If I'm wrong, then it's because THOSE points that I was asking about are wrong, and if you want to have the government provide for people in America instead of real jobs, they're questions that have to be answered, and the left and demand-side economics does NOT answer them.

A concerned citizen| 4.6.09 @ 3:58PM

It sounds like Mr. Ferrera's plan includes an increase in the size of government to administer such a proposed system. How many welfare offices would you need to make this system sustainable? How many human resource professionals would it take to place the recipients into their daily positions? How much is that free government provided daycare, health insurance, and housing assistance going to cost? When the recipients are placed in positions with private firms, who is paying the wages? If Uncle Sam is, the it's more than likely going to pay out more than the existing system does and its going to subsidize a labor force for private companies. If private industry is providing the wages, then they are effectively getting a 10% break on the minimum wage required by law.

Your system makes little sense as it increases the size of government and public expenditures while ti effectively gives private industry free manpower. You need to face the facts: the current welfare system is the best way you rich nazi fascists can keep a large swath of the public docile at the lowest possible cost. There a big brain in D.C. who has come to this conclusion after crunching the numbers. If it weren't so, Uncle Sam wouldn't be doing it.

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