-
The Game Continues
June 10, 2013 | 3 comments
-
Crunch Time in Paris
June 6, 2013 | 4 comments
-
The Lone Musketeer
June 5, 2013 | 346 comments
-
Swiss Cheese
June 4, 2013 | 1 comment
-
Caballeros
June 3, 2013 | 1 comment
Another Perspective
Conversing With Pope Benedict
So much to talk about.
Personally I never met the pope, Benedict XVI, nor any of his predecessors. I would have liked to talk to them. John Paul II is one of the titans of the past century, one of the principal causes of the collapse of Soviet communism and its accompanying imperialism, and he was a man of deep faith and a writer, a poet, a man you’d want to know. In a conversation with him, there could be no false notes, talking to him would be as rich an experience as — another man I wish I’d known — talking with Rabbi Menachem Schneerson.
I know this sounds a little trite, but seriously, there are only so many people you can meet and since you cannot meet them all and even if you meet them you and they may not have the time (but why not?) for the conversation you hoped for, you have to learn to find in everyone the riches you would have liked to find in famous people you never got to know. Dostoevsky knew Tolstoy and said some of his richest encounters were with ordinary criminals he met in Siberia, when he was imprisoned and exiled out there. I am not partial to famous people or anything like that. I just meant I would have liked to know Schneerson, and Karol Wojtyla.
Benedict interests me, among other reasons, because he is the first German pope since, I believe, the late Middle Ages. I am not sure there were any German popes in the high Middle Ages. There was a Holy Roman Empire, which was run by Germans, and they were often in conflict with the popes, who were usually Italian.
You must not generalize, even with regard to the Irish, with whom I have some acquaintance thanks to Mr. Tyrrell and Mr. McElhone, whose sister-in-law, Mrs. Maggie Gallagher, was my neighbor and the loveliest soul on that decrepit New York block I used to live on. I never generalize about anybody, even Nigerians. It is a fact, however, that as to the Germans of a certain generation, of which Benedict XVI, partakes, you perhaps cannot generalize but you can ask. You can ask where and when and what.
Well, as it happens, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, former archbishop of Munich, is, by the historical record, a good and honest man, I will not say a holy man because then you get into all these controversies and I do not want to inadvertently say anything that might offend my Baptist friends, some of whom I have to admit are kind of anti-papist and I would even say irrationally so. You could not have the Baptist faith were it not for the Catholic faith, but try to explain that to them. I say let bygones and the 95 Theses and all that be bygones, okay for the University of Chicago Divinity School bigheads, but we, we can all come together, we can all come together and be in solidarity, at least until we disagree, as the Republicans so nobly did the other day with regard to the latest Washington pork barrel. Especially given their own record as porkers.
This is his record: Hitler youth at 14 — all 14-year-old German boys were automatically enrolled — and stint in the army in the last year of the war, then a life devoted to the service of his Church and his fellow-man. Learned and polyglot, an academic and an intellectual as well as a community organizer as active priests perforce must be. A conservative in a conservative institution — I am not neglecting the worker-priests, the theology of liberation, the option of the poor, the men who served with the Abbé Pierre in France and the Emmaus organization, but generally and without undue generalizations, I follow Mr. McElhone in viewing the Catholic Church as a conservative organization. Mrs. Gallagher and I used to discuss this matter. “It is a fine and grand thing,” I would say, and sometimes her gentle laughter sounded just a bit like a snicker. But more specifically, Cardinal Ratzinger, as bishop and as head of the doctrine department at the Vatican, which is sort of like the editorial page at the Wall Street Journal I suppose, always came down on the conservative side.
So I think and my sources tell me basically and obviously it is none of my business, but I think he favored the Latin mass. As personally I do too, not as a Catholic, since I am not, but as a teacher. Anything that advances literacy I am in favor of and let me tell you, state and local guidelines requiring the teaching of Latin in our public schools would do a lot more for literacy, and cost a lot less — and be a lot less destructive of our educational institutions — than the No Child Left Behind Act, Titles one two and three, and every other boneheaded reform idea that since the Great Society has sprung from the pork-lined brains of education racketeers.
Benedict also favors the Tridentine Mass, which is not highly regarded among Jews because of an appeal for their conversion (to Christianity.) Frankly, I never mind non-coercive arguments that I should change my ways. You always do what you want, anyway, and you are always trying to sell people or this or that, so what’s the big deal? More profound, it seems to me, is the issue of just what Benedict thinks of the Jews, and what he thinks is this: no Jews, no Christians. This is standard Catholic doctrine, I believe. It is also a deep reflection on history and on the nihilistic trends in modern history.
And yet, it is also the case that the Tridentine Mass seems to find favor with people like Richard Williamson, an English bishop whom Benedict XVI recently rehabilitated, touching off a scandal. The man had been excommunicated many years ago. He was a supporter of the schismatic and possibly heretical — what do I know? — bishop of Dakar, Marcel Lefebvre. They opposed most of the currents of thought and liturgical and institutional reform given expression during Vatican II. Well, disagreement is the stuff of progress, but it was more than that. They also seemed to always get enmeshed with underground networks that harbored Nazis. This was not a cause and effect relationship, but you still knew these were not pleasant people. They were, are to the degree they still are around, anti-Semites.
Why rehabilitate Williamson? Internal Church politics? Possibly. Benedict wants to cover his right flank. Keep in mind that the effort to bring the anti-Vatican II Catholics led by Lefebvre (who died almost 20 years ago) back into the fold is not news. John Paul II made some stabs in that direction. If the Church finds it possible to make a decision to heal this particular breach, can it discriminate on the basis of whether or not you are cuckoo (and despicable) with regard to the gas chambers? In other words, if you say the priests who were excommunicated due to their adherence to Bishop Lefebvre’s anti-Vatican II views (technically, if I am not mistaken, they were sanctioned because they were ordained by him) are now being tentatively welcomed back, then logically other issues are… other issues. It would not make sense to say some are rehabilitated but others are not — the whole rehabilitation would seem capricious, whereas clearly the whole effort over the past three or four decades has been to come to terms on a number of doctrinal issues, not historical issues. I plan to defer to Mr. McElhone on this one, or my old teacher Bernard McGinn, but at least that is how it strikes me as a problem of logic.
Anyway, maybe it has to do with nothing of the kind, Benedict is simply feeling charitable, a normal, I gather, normative, Christian attitude, and since he was being kind to some of these guys, he felt he had to be kind to all of them. As a Church matter, by the way, it is of some importance. The Lefevrists number about 500 priests and while that is not a mass movement, it is not negligible, either. However, it was kind of insensitive, since Richard Williamson is a Holocaust-denier. Angela Merkel, chancellor of Germany, was understandably outraged. It was bad enough under any circumstances, and I do not think she had in mind these ancient quarrels of papacy and empire, but with the pope a German, she could not remain silent. So she did not. She is Lutheran, daughter of a Lutheran pastor, and you have to admit the Lutherans always have been good at telling the papists what-for, so that was fine. However, the pope has made it quite clear that he finds Holocaust-denial repugnant, mendacious, and sick. He is due to visit Israel in a few months and doubtless will make his position clear again then.
Meanwhile, what is going on in the world is that we see state-sponsored anti-Semitism in Venezuela, anti-Semitic vandalism in France and elsewhere in Europe. Israel is condemned in international institutions without regard for civilization as we know it. The test of an institution, a nation’s foreign policy, a school system’s credibility, a community’s commitment to liberty, is whether it takes seriously the fight between freedom and tyranny. In the present time, this fight takes many forms but one of the most desperate concerns Israel’s survival. The position you take on this matters more than catfights within your own house, however revealing these may be. I would very much like to talk to Benedict XVI. We would talk about our mutual affiliations. We could talk about European civilization and Israel and the editorial line of the Suddeutscher Zeitung, the big Munich paper. We could talk about Robert Musil and Thomas Mann, Günter Grass, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, André and Magda Trocmé.
We could return to the subject of his visit to Israel, whom he met there, what he saw, what he enjoyed or disliked. I believe Mr. Tyrrell is working on getting me Vatican press credentials and then we’ll try to set up an interview. It would be better to just run into him in the cafeteria, but you know how these things work.
About the Author
Roger Kaplan, a Washington-based writer, covers the Middle East and Africa (and tennis) for The American Spectator.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (67) | Leave a comment
More Articles by Roger Kaplan
More Articles From Another Perspective
http://spectator.org/archives/2009/02/17/conversing-with-pope-benedict
Follow us:
ADVERTISEMENT
The Spectacle Blog
Democrat Dan Maffei Blames Budget Cuts for Girl’s Rape, Mother’s Murder
Robert Stacy McCain | 6.18.13
SPONSORED LINKS
FLASHBACK TO: 1995
-
Pope Culture
A man of faith in a godless age is hitting Americans where it hurts.
-
Why the GOP Does Not, Like, Totally Suck
Mr. and Mrs. American Spectator Reader, let P.J. O’Rourke talk sense to your kids.
-
Dames at Sea
-
In the Absence of Guns
In Britain, defending your property can get you life.
-
The Metaphysical Martini
-
Counting the Costs of Clintonism
The debacle of this president’s administration is both a cause and a symptom of the decline of American values. Unless Congress impeaches him, that decline will go on unchecked. An eminent jurist surveys the damage and assesses the chances for the recovery of our culture.
-
Chuck McHagel
It won’t take long for conservatives to scratch this presidential wannabe off their 2008 scorecard.
-
The Legacy of Old John and Mother Fresh-Roasted
-
It’s the Best Time of the Year
The American Christmas, like the songs that celebrate it, makes room for everybody under the rainbow. Is that why so many people seem to be hostile to it?
-
The Bush Crack-Up
Was the President done in by the economy, or by the politics of the economy?
Clip of the Day
ADVERTISEMENT
Peter Willis| 2.17.09 @ 6:42AM
I had some trouble working this out amid the conflictimng and inaccurate stories, but Williamson (who incidentally is also a 9/11 "Truther") has NOT been rehabilitated, whatever that means. He is simply allowed to receive the sacrement.
Pingback| 2.17.09 @ 6:58AM
time » Blog Archive » The American Spectator : Conversing With Pope Benedict links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
JP| 2.17.09 @ 9:15AM
Peter,
I think you are correct. The edict of excommunication for Bishop Williamson and 3 other Sedavacnists was lifted. However, I think it is incorrect to refer to them as Bishops. They were never lactisized (de-frocked), but upon ex-communication they lost thier dioceses and any privleges as Bishops. If anything, one could refer to them as Bishops without Protfolio. That is, they cannot initiate new members of the Church or confer Holy Orders on priests. But since they are still priests, they can say Mass (at least privately) and administer the other Sacrements.
What is a little disconcerting is the degree of interference from many European leaders into the affairs of the Church. Angela Merckel (a non-Catholic) has gone as far as to demand that BXVI remove Williamson from the ranks of the Church. That is, the same EU leaders who wine, dine, and fete Holocaust Denying arab leaders, now demand that BXVI kick out any Catholics who do the same.
For those wo do not know the scandal involving the Sedavacnists (Those who believe The Chair of Peter has been lacking an authentic Pope since the early 60s), Bishop LeFebvre an orthodox Catholic Bishop who had legitimate problems with the way the Church was going, in a fit of disobedience began ordaining Bishops on his own during the 1980s. Of course, only the Pope can do this. He was ordered to stop. He refused. In the late 80s, the Vatican ex-communicated him and his fellow "Bishops" and priests. In a tit-for-tat, LeFebvre and his followers refused to recognize any authority but thier own, as in thier eyes, no legitimate Pope has occupied the Vatican since the beginning of the Vatican II.
While the split is hardly on the radar screen in the US, it caused quite a scandal in Europe. Like all Christian Churches in Europe, the Catholic Church has been in steep decline; however, LeFebvre did attract quite a few followers in France. They probably outnumber all other Catholics in France today (at least church attending Catholics).
BXVI is only attempting to extend the mercy of Chirst to these people. He is not granting an automatic indult -these people will still have to reconcile themselves, and the leaders will still have to recant thier past disobedience.
Peter Willis| 2.17.09 @ 9:35AM
After all the confused news stories I finally asked the editor of my localCatholic paper, who told me quite definately that Williamson CANNOT officiate as a priest or give the sacrements - he can only receive them. If this is correct, and I think it is, I wish the Church had made it clearer earlier - a bad PR breakdown there.
Jeremiah| 2.17.09 @ 9:36AM
Receiving the deranged bishop Williamson does not in any way acknowledge his beliefs about the Holocaust: in fact, the pope has been clear about the Holocaust and he has denounced deniers.
The fact is that Holocaust denial is ignorant and cruel, but it may not be enough to keep a person from the holy communion. And I don't see why it should be. Jesus says he came to minister to the sick, not to the well.
The poster above who says that the pope is extending the "mercy of Christ" has it right.
But the pope may also be considering something else: with Williamson back in the fold, he must be obedient to the church. What did the pope have to say to him while he was in exile?
Also --
I cavil with your thumbnail sketch of "conservative" Catholicism vs. what you imply is "liberal". It's not quite that simple.
JPII was a "conservative" pope by almost any definition, yet he loathed consumerism and many of the excesses of capitalism even while remaining a life-long staunch opponent of socialism.
He also, by the way, informed President Bush that the Iraq War was not just, but the president spoke to a higher father, and look how well that turned out.
FORMER HITLER YOUTH| 2.17.09 @ 11:28AM
It's wonderfull to see a former member of Hitler youth held in such high regard in American society today.
He has just repreived one of his cardinals regarding being a Holacaust denier. The Americans are a very forgiving people.
david murphy| 2.17.09 @ 12:18PM
It's not a sin to have wrong ideas about history, as long as they don't relate to the doctrinal teachings of the Church. And the guy was not excommunicated from the Church in the first place because he said objectionable things about the Holocaust. I wonder: Would all those who say the Pope ought not to let this guy get the sacraments say the same about actual sinners, too? If so, they really don't understand the Faith. Some religions aren't big on forgiveness and reconciliation, I know, but the Pope heads one in which it's kind of an important thing. And the Pope doesn't want, nor does he need, any forgiveness from ignorant Americans who don't understand German history. And I guess, to judge from this previous entry, that they didn't spend a lot of time teaching orthography to former members of the Hitler Youth.
Tim| 2.17.09 @ 12:30PM
The fact that this Pope as JPII before him are and was staunch supporters of Israel and both of them have strongly rejected any and all Holocaust Denials within their ranks or within any and all cultures including some extreme Arabs who deny such facts is simply without question.
As to the giving and allowing receipt of the Holy Sacraments.
I think if you are going to deny them to anyone for wrong doing or wrong rhetoric you need to deny them to all who disrespect Catholic Teaching including people like Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden to name just a two.
Philomena Dunkl| 2.17.09 @ 12:35PM
Roger,
Write about things that you have knowledge. Don't waste readers' time with all your inaccuracies and lack of knowledge about the Catholic Church and Catholic Faith.
Jeremiah,
Pope John Paul II never told President George Bush that the Iraq War was unjust. He opposed the war but never declared it an "unjust war." He acknowledged that political authorities had to make that decision based on the necessity to fulfill their responsibility to protect their people. Read George Weigel's "Against the Grain" if you want to understand the just war tradition of the Catholic Church.
Appleby| 2.17.09 @ 12:53PM
"That is, the same EU leaders who wine, dine, and fete Holocaust Denying arab leaders, now demand that BXVI kick out any Catholics who do the same. "
Isn't this in effect giving the Catholic Church a higher position in the world than the EU apparatchiks ... by their saying "We tax collectors and drunkards and other sinners hobnob with those like ourselves -- but we object very much to holy people whom we venerate following our example" , eh?
If we're going to start booting people out of the Church, why not start with the divorced and remarried people, those living together in sin, the condom users and the active homosexuals, and then work our way up to Holocaust Deniers?
Jeremiah| 2.17.09 @ 1:39PM
Philomena --
I accept your point and will look into it. The book you mention sounds interesting.
I do remember at the start of the war several statements coming out of the Vatican that were not terribly ambiguous: the pope was not supportive of the war.
As the presiding and unrepentant liberal commentator here at American Spectator, I think it's important to point out that our last pope's political or cultural vision was very complicated and not easily categorized.
Of course he tasked Americans on this issue of abortion, as well he should, but he also sternly reproached our use of the death penalty. And while he was no friend of socialism, he warned the world about the evils of consumerism -- which is just another name for post-industrial capitalism.
Pope John Paul II is one of the most fascinating and inspiring figures of the 20th century. In addition to some other influences, it was really he that drew me to Catholicism (I'm a recent convert).
I appreciate Kaplan's piece above and the intelligent and reasonable posts on this topic.
Jeremiah| 2.17.09 @ 1:43PM
Former --
Even among staunch critics of the Church this issue was largely settled definitively. The pope was no Nazi. I'm not even sure he was 15 before the fall of the third reich, and his membership in that organization was so common among German children that it means nothing.
As far as I know, this is a closed issue. But if you have any evidence you'd like to point us to that would suggest why we should question whether the pope is sympathetic with Nazism, I'd like to see it.
Patrick| 2.17.09 @ 2:00PM
I'm puzzled by the author's juxtaposition of Pope Benedict XVI and Rabbi Menachem Scheerson. Given the disparity in their public profiles (the pope is well-known, the rabbi decidedly not), this reads like name-dropping for insiders. Adding Karol Wojtyla to the mix did not make it any clearer, especially because he is better known as Pope John Paul II.
By the time Mr. Tyrell, Mr. McElhone, and Mrs. Gallagher were added to the party, I'd grown weary of the conceit.
Did we need a rambling "what do I know?" kind of discourse punctuated by speculation, asides about "what is going on in the world," and a pseudo-authoritative assertion from a non-Catholic that Pope Benedict is basically a good guy?
Call me a dunderhead, but if there is anything other than the most tenuous of links between Abbé Pierre and Angela Merkel, I just don't see it. Mr. Kaplan's recent (and surprisingly controversial) piece on Abraham Lincoln at least had the virtue of being coherent.
Frank Natoli| 2.17.09 @ 2:10PM
Mr. Kaplan: regarding the fight for the survival of Israel, the vast majority of American Jews voted last November for a man who will significantly endanger Israel's survival. Since one cannot call such behavior anti-Semitic, what can you call it?
And regarding the Catholic Church being a conservative institution, certainly this and the previous commander in chief are or were conservatives, but the Western cardinals, bishops and priests are overwhelmingly liberals. When New York's John Cardinal O'Connor died, and the New York Times ran a full page obit on him, it noted that in every gathering of American bishops, his was the sole conservative vote in one political resolution after another.
Pope Benedict recently received Nancy Pelosi. When Madonna asked for a private audience with Pope John Paul, she was refused. That made a point that the public could understand: drench your lifestyle and your career with sex, and you need to do a little penance before being received by the Pope. Refusing Pelosi would have made another point: publicly state that supporting abortion is consistent with being a good Catholic, with receiving Communion in her San Francisco church, and you need to do a lot of penance before being received by the Pope. But the liberal forces in the Church wouldn't have it.
Ryan| 2.17.09 @ 2:40PM
To maybe expound and extend upon what JP had said, there is a constant mis-characterization of what forgiveness entails.
Forgiveness is NOT condonement. Simply because someone wronged me, and I forgive them, does not mean I excuse their behaviour or accept it as good and right and proper. The action still exists.
There are many Christians and particularly non-Christians who don't understand that point. Christ's forgiveness doesn't call my sin good - it does exactly the opposite. It calls my sin for what it is and He draws me to Himself anyway.
Is this what the Pope is doing? I've actually learned a little in the midst of this discussion on my RC brethren (the closes description for me is "reformed Baptist," but I'm a bit ecumenical when it comes to other Christian faiths).
Sean| 2.17.09 @ 2:50PM
To Catholics the current US government can be considered as evil as Nazi Germany. Abortion is the law of the land in the US and has killed more than those that died in concentration camps.
JP| 2.17.09 @ 2:57PM
"As far as I know, this is a closed issue. But if you have any evidence you'd like to point us to that would suggest why we should question whether the pope is sympathetic with Nazism, I'd like to see it"
Jerimiah,
The only person who claimed that BXVI was a "true believer" was German novelist Gunther Grass. Grass, who said he served in the SS as a youth, claimed that then Cardinal Ratzinger was put into the same camp as his (special camps reserved for the Waffen SS). Later, it turned out that Grass never served in the SS. he made the entire thing up. Grass has been silent ever since.
clashseeker| 2.17.09 @ 3:17PM
Will somebody ask the Pope why the ethnic group that is the fastest growing of his flock keep having babies they can't take care of, and at record rates. The Catholic Church I once knew did a pretty good job in this area, at least in America. Of course, they were called repressive and all of that. They made you afraid to have sex and make babies. Maybe, but I am glad I listened. Do I really need 2 or 3 more kids and 20 or so grandchildren and great grandchildren to worry about ? Thank God for that church of yesteryear.
NAZI is Under GROUND| 2.17.09 @ 4:11PM
The more Catholics America produce like a production line in a factory, the bigger the chance of reviving Nazism.
America has created the same exact situation before Hitlers rise to power, poverty high unemployment, a Zionist controled economy. All for one and one for all. Then the out break of war, which the Zionist is presasing for in the Middle East, to draw America into a conflict, then Europe killing Billions of people world wide as they did in the 1st and 2nd world war. this is the brink of ww3.
Nick| 2.17.09 @ 4:53PM
clashseeker,
Whoever taught you Catholicism utterly failed you. The Roman Catholic Church teaches the marital act is holy and a gift from God. And you need as many children as God wants to bless you with. Children are not burdens, are they? Please read your catechism.
Fred Dempsey| 2.17.09 @ 5:03PM
"Benedict also favors the Tridentine Mass, which is not highly regarded among Jews because of an appeal for their conversion (to Christianity.) "
There is no such appeal in the Tridentine Mass, and this is just one example of the writer's ignorance of the topic he is addressing. Insofar as he is writing for a readership that can write "...but upon ex-communication they lost thier dioceses and any privleges as Bishops," who must be even more ignorant than the author, it is truly a case of the blind leading the blind.
Does the use of the Internet preclude research and informed commentary?
Louise | 2.17.09 @ 5:09PM
All children are a gift from God. May He bless these families that give them a loving home instead of MURDERING them in the womb! Besides if we survive OBAMA who will pay the social security for the old folks!
Nick| 2.17.09 @ 5:38PM
I just heard the Holy Father is meeting with San Fran Nan!
I hope he has the Vatican exorcist with him.
Or a bucket of water in case she bursts into flames.
clashseeker| 2.17.09 @ 5:41PM
I was talking about out of wedlock birth Nick. The Church I knew said no premarital sex and if you made a baby you got married and raised it. Do you really think our civilization can survive with the out of wedlock birth we now endure ? A child having many babies by many daddies ? This is God's plan ? Time for mandatory birth control on these breeders, bet your ass.
IS OBAMA UP TO THIS?| 2.17.09 @ 6:00PM
America is bankrupt, the issue is not who is going to pay for old age pensioners, they will not exist, get it.
Netanyahu intentions is to start a war with Iran, this design is to bring in the Americans, to get American service men and women fighting against Iran, and bring in other Arab countries and then it will bring in Europeans to create a war between Arabs and Christians, while they are busy losing their lives, Israel plans it's next move.
It could be even using Mossad agents to plant bombs inside America, and European countries which they have done false flag operations all across Europe and America.
The plan is to Kill and keep killing to reduce the American and European population and the Arab population till they control the world.
Till people understand and wake up from the twilight zone they have no chance to survive.
Israel is more important than America, by the American administration. The very idea that a former member of the Hitler Youth is now Pope is right for the age in which we live.
Israel announced today that they are planning to assinate people inside Iran. Because they hope to get this war started it's all over the News but it will not be in the News in America because it's the only country that does not get the news.
In Lebanon today several Israeli Spy's caught trying to plant Bumbs and launch rockets inside Israel to provoke an attack, and claim it's, Hezbollah.
I do not, think 2010 will arrive without a major collapse of the American economy and a MAJOR WAR, started by the Israelis. Their Ultimate goal is genocide of the Arabs and the Christians, by setting them up as dogs against each other. This will be the WAR to the death, and not even Israel will survive. It is Neo Nazisim, because the people who are behind this are not Jews but people who are former Nazis from Germany because they all went some where after the Nazi war, many went to Europe And many more went to America and the rest went to live in Israel, what we are told is not the truth but what they want people to think.
The entire world is in the gravest danger since the 2nd world war. The economic melt down is what will start civil wars in Europe America and across the world.
This stimulus package will not work because the money is not enough. But with the bailout of the economy is the biggest TRICK ever plotted against EUROPE and AMERICA in HISTORY, use tax payers money to bail out BANKS the BANKS keep the money to later lend to fight world war 3, they hold on to the money and let the economy be destroyed and when the American people and across Europe is desperate, for money to fight in the Arab world the Banks then lend the people their own money to fight for their very survival.
People in America and Europe have no clue what they are up against, when every young man and woman is killed in the desert of the Middle East, the whole of Europe becomes defenceless and America becomes a defenceless place, with women and kids left behind, homeless and a broken country.
People living the American dream, need to wake from their slumber, and the whole of Europe needs to wake up and stand up to this threat. We are being used to acheive an Israeli goal that the world cannot afford, some call it Zionizm I really don't care what people call it but we are in grave danger.
Jeremiah| 2.17.09 @ 6:21PM
I guess I'm not surprised that a thread about the Church brought out a few who dwell in the diseased fringes of reactionary America.
Anti-Catholic bigotry is deeply disturbing among so-called "conservatives."
No wonder it is the Democratic party that has put a Catholic president and now a Catholic vice president in office.
Nick| 2.17.09 @ 6:42PM
clashseeker,
Sorry, didn't understand your point. Of course, the MARITAL act is only licit between those who are married. I Could not agree more.
But you don't try to stop one sin with another.
NO, OBAMA IS NOT UP TO THIS!| 2.17.09 @ 6:47PM
CUCKOO!-CUCKOO!-CUCKOO!-CUCKOO!
clashseeker| 2.17.09 @ 6:57PM
Nick, how do we stop this catastrophe of babies being born by children ? We at least need some form of expanded and mandated birth control to save our nation. In, a generation or two we will become a savage land.
clashseeker| 2.17.09 @ 6:59PM
"WHOOSH", and flushed down the tubes goes you know who.
ruth| 2.17.09 @ 7:49PM
Funny, Jeremiah, I know a lot of liberals who absolutely loathe the Catholic church. Your gay friends in San Francisco never miss a chance to excoriate Roman Catholicism. Joe Biden, Pelosi and John Kerry are Catholics in name only, joker.
DAPHNE TAKE YOUR MEDS!!| 2.17.09 @ 7:52PM
DAPHNE TAKE YOUR MEDS STAT!!
Nick| 2.17.09 @ 8:00PM
clashseeker,
Birth control is available at 7-11s and gas station mini-marts across the country. And schools will hand it out behind the parents back. Has that worked.
It was birth control combined with sex-ed and ADC welfare to top it off that made the out-of-wedlock birth rate skyrocket in the first place. It's like giving teenage boys a class in "how to make a bomb with household materials" and wondering how to stop kids from blowing themselves up!
And what do you mean "mandatory"? Licenses to have children? Spade and neuter the rest?
I want no part of that, thank you.
Zimbabwe in the USA| 2.17.09 @ 8:07PM
One day wake up the Job you had don't exist or the company, the home you had no longer belongs to you. And your children will live on the streets of America, and become beggars.
Their country fall into ruins, their position in the world will fall their currency will become worthless, and the leading currency replaced. The holdings in American reserve currency, will flood the markets as the Chinese and other holders of American dollars dump the money for assets such as gold, which will rise to over 2000 Dollars per ounce in the next 18 months, all countries around the globe will panic to dump the dollars, and America will cirtainly fall into distruction. At this point it is when the true value of the American dollar reveles it's self all experts in the world knows the American dollar is not worth a sheet of toilet paper in reality. This is why the stock market will continue into decline, as each country decides how to dump the dollars. China has no choice but to rid its self of the huge reserves and will be lookinf for 4000 Tone of gold, bought in American dolars is how the market becomes saturated with American dollars only that it will be worthless.
America has to die, there is no option, the world is holding it's breath, but it cannot be avoided. Obama is borrowing so the Fed can keep printing this worthless currency. Even the people with jobs it will become like slavery working for nothing because what you are working for is worthless, America will become the trial run of Zimbabwe.
The Death of a NATION| 2.17.09 @ 8:13PM
The biggest shake up in History of economics, will result in the demise of the UnitedStates. No war will save it. No one will be sorry to se it's decline.
America is DOOMED| 2.17.09 @ 8:32PM
America was set up on a false monetary system, which is no different than having the mafia running their economy.
American debts has brought down the nations of the developed world. the G20 has to find a new leading currency and it's a matter of urgency. The Chinese leader has been visiting in Europe to try to secure it's position, and the only ones who has the ability to find a stable currency for world trade, the Euro is one or the Yen. but Americans need to deal with their domestic issuesa how they will survive this transition. Obama cannot tell the American people the state of play only how dire it is. The only lucky ones out there is one who has no bebts, and land to grow food on.
The problems is going to become people with no money trying to get food to eat.
This will become something America has never seen since its founding. America is finished, and has no future what so ever.
Obama can't save America, the American problem is bigger than the entire world, and have been living in a dream world and their political system run by outside forces which is what lead to it's decline.
USA as SODDOM is about to DIE| 2.17.09 @ 9:02PM
Even the Pope is losing money, while people worry about this man dressed as wolves in sheeps clothing because this is who he is. He will not be here a long time the Bible sys so.
Nazism is coming back, and many will be surprised to know it had never gone any where.
The pope blessed Hitler during the time of the murder of the Jews, now they have Hitler youth as leader, no one ask why.
The Catholic Church is responsible for the death of over 50 Million people, but does any one give a dam?. Most people is not even aware of it. The Catholic Church is responsible for thousands of Children being sexually molested, does any one care I wonder.
It's time to wake up and stop pretending, take your history bok and your bible, and read it, if you support something know what it is you support and why.
If the Bible says there is only 144.000 people in the world worth saving what does it mean to the Catholic Church, and the Muslim faith, and the false prophets in the Christian fundamentalist organisation which in fact have no beliefs at all only false doctrins. America is a corrupt country with no values, and fools it's self that it is a christaian place while murdering millions of people for money every year. It's is the whore of Babylon, any thing for oil. lives for oil, lives for money. every thing for sale including people. The most sickest NATION on earth since SODOM and GOMORA.
Tim| 2.17.09 @ 9:41PM
Maybe just maybe.....WWIII will happen and maybe just maybe we are living in the end times.
So be it....if it ends it ends....BFD
Nick| 2.17.09 @ 10:02PM
YES, WE ARE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, AND WE SEE ALL AND KNOW ALL.
WE HAVE TRACED YOUR ISP CONNECTION.
WE WILL BE COMING FOR YOU TONIGHT!!!
THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT!
Nick| 2.17.09 @ 10:04PM
We have learned not to double click yet. DOH!
Nick| 2.17.09 @ 10:06PM
"We haven't learned..." MAN!!
Say goodnight Gracie! Goodnight Gracie.
Tim| 2.17.09 @ 10:09PM
Us and Sodom is about to die,
The USA may have our share of corruption but our nukes can turn your country into ashes in a matter of seconds and don't ever forget that.
Oh and did I mention that the US Secret Service and the US generals are Capitalists....Just thought I would mention it so you can sleep better tonight.
Patrick| 2.17.09 @ 10:56PM
Fred Dempsey, the controversy involves a prayer said during Good Friday. It's fairly innocuous, and from a Christian perspective could be considered a favor on behalf of the Jewish people. After all, if there's a party, why not send invitations? Even so, some Jewish leaders took offense, and that's why this snippet showed up.
In the end, the Catholic Church does not have the media resources to counteract the puerile blitherings of the Adversary's MSM. Those whose faith in Christ and His Bride remains unshaken will persevere, regardless of bad PR or the obscene antics of nominal coreligionists.
Patrick| 2.17.09 @ 10:59PM
P.S., the second paragraph is unrelated to the first. I'm distracted by IRL situations right now, and I apologize if such has lead to any confusion.
DAPHNE KENWARD IS NUTS!| 2.17.09 @ 11:01PM
Death to Amerika!
GOD| 2.17.09 @ 11:05PM
Daphne, you aren't among those 144.000 people worth saving. Sorry.
Alan Brooks| 2.17.09 @ 11:43PM
i'm a Catholic who doesn't go to Church, however the rock was Peter and our link to the disintegrating past.
with all the libtrolls commenting here, i wont be posting much-- the squeaky libs get the grease.
Alan Brooks| 2.17.09 @ 11:47PM
PS
I dont go to Church anymore because illiberalism has its tendrils in the inner sanctum now.it's eveywhere from AS libtrolled blogs to the Church.
ruth| 2.17.09 @ 11:57PM
Alan, I want Latin masses back!
Nick| 2.18.09 @ 12:00AM
Mr. Brooks,
Please keep posting. Your comments always bring a smile to my face.
And please consider going back to Mass, remember it's where we experience Heaven on Earth and get to commune with Christ.
ruth| 2.18.09 @ 1:21AM
I feel Alan's pain, Nick. It tore me up when I was more pro-life than my pastor. Didn't seem right that I had to argue on behalf of the pre-born with my parish priest. I would never turn my back on my Lord, but I did so on my parish.
Jeremiah| 2.18.09 @ 7:50AM
Simply mention the possibility that a Catholic may be politically liberal and I get to watch people's heads start spinning while they spit up green pea soup and speak in strange tongues.
clashseeker| 2.18.09 @ 10:39AM
Nick, a civilization has a right to fight back and restore order. We are at that point or close to it. Or, let us do nothing for another 20 years and pretend God or Welfare will save us.
If only we pray enough, or send in enough earnest social workers and therapists young savages will stop giving birth at breathtaking rates to baby savages, who will roam the land as a massive majority plundering and destroying as they see fit. Do you think those who gave up their lives at Normandy or Iwo Jima did so in order that less than a century later the heirs to their great victory would be content to sit by and commit national suicide ?
Nick| 2.18.09 @ 2:31PM
clashseeker,
I understand your point and concern. But your solution is wrong and immoral.
Birth control leads to promiscuous sex, which leads to unintended pregnancies, it does not reduce them. Yours is a proscription for more, not less, fatherless children.
Forced contraception or sterilization is repugnant and evil.
And yes, I totally trust God. I try to follow the example Christ gave us by praying constantly. I fall extremely short of Our Lord, but I try. You should also try.
clashseeker| 2.18.09 @ 2:37PM
What is happening in America is not God's will. Is it ? Does God really want this land to have a population of one billion, the majority who will be miscreants, even savages. Do you want these gangs controlling more turf. A birth control shot in some pathetic little girls ass so she can't breed 4 or 5 kids before age 20 is an act of love and understanding.
McElhone| 2.19.09 @ 5:30PM
Kaplan, the sly outsider that he is, made the church's case better than its spokesmen have done.
It goes more or less like this. The Church is in the reconciliation business. It is a vast Parmenidian enterprise, hoping to unify all of humanity in commitment to a few articles of faith. Once those articles are accepted, there is plenty of room to be detestable (Williamson), courageous (John Paul II), a fool (my first year Latin teacher) and so many other things.
Benedict, who has a public relations tin ear, is always stumbling into this sort of thing. Remember how he so outraged the Islamic crazies that they raced around threatening and committing murder? Then again, what's new with that, eh?
Back to Benedict. He follows the path of his chosen business, reconciliation. In doing so, he consistently loses sight of the world's other concerns, sensitivities and ironies. Thus, we have the pope with the German accent and Hitler Youth history, inviting a Holocaust denier back into the fold -- and being puzzled that the rest of us are shocked.
Poor Benedict, he's God's fool for reconciliation.
McElhone
Contreceptives PLEASE| 2.19.09 @ 7:28PM
Clashseeker.
You are dam right. Breeding is not a right, people needs to be responsible, people are not dogs and cats. Even dogs and cats are spade.
The DeATH OF A NATION| 2.19.09 @ 7:38PM
They also said NOAH was nuts too, befor the FLOOD.
McElhone| 2.20.09 @ 9:04PM
Some years ago, Lester Madoxx, then Governor of Georgia, responded to criticism of the Georgia penal system by saying, We have done all we can; you will have to give us better quality prisoners.
After reading the responses to Roger Kaplan's submission regarding the Pope's recent attempt to reconcile with dissident Catholics, I have much the same counsel for The Spectator. Get us better quality readers and respondents.
Poor Kaplan, he writes this wry, insightful commentary only to find that he has lured every brand of wacko out of every cave this side of Tora Bora. How can the rest of us have a rational discussion?