The Nation's Pulse
Thrill Killing
That’s what wildlife managers call it. But it’s an ugly national problem.
I saw a short item recently in the Idaho Falls Post-Register. Forty-six dead Canada geese were found stuffed into a dumpster in Soda Springs, Idaho. A state wildlife official speculated that the geese were shot “over decoys” placed in nearby farm fields or from a boat on Blackfoot Reservoir.
It’s a sickeningly familiar story. Two moose shot and left to rot near Dubois, Wyoming this fall. Two yearling grizzly bears killed near Union Pass in roughly the same area as the moose. An increasing wasted antelope body count littering the gas fields near Rock Springs and Pinedale, Wyoming. Senselessly murdered mule deer left on the ground in Nevada. All this has nothing to do with the legal autumn hunting seasons, an annual “rite” properly observed by thousands in the West. It’s even far removed from old-fashioned good-old-boy poaching to put meat on the family table, which seems almost moral by comparison. Old school poachers don’t leave rotting carcasses behind. Sometimes, if the animal can be classified as trophy game, such as a bull elk, the antlers or whole head will be removed, sometimes not. No, it’s “thrill killing,” as wildlife managers call it, and it seems to occur regularly somewhere in the West. It’s actually a national problem.
In Portage, Wisconsin, this was recently seen on a grand scale. According to the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel, two young men, Josh Kerl, 21, and Adam Stalsberg, 22, were arrested and each charged with two misdemeanors for hunting deer in a closed season and hunting deer at night. They were also issued a total of 74 citations for various small game violations that carried fines totaling approximately $8,000. The two were fined $2,100 per charge on the deer and lost their hunting privileges for three years. What boggles the mind — despite the official leniency of the charges — is that Wisconsin wildlife officials estimate that Kerl and Stalsberg, using spotlights and high powered rifles, killed some 600 animals in the past year. Sandhill cranes, owls, crows, snapping turtles, ducks, red-tailed hawks, wild turkeys, raccoons, possums, even sturgeons swimming in a reservoir. “Thrill killing lends itself to instant gratification, not the totality of the hunt,” said Chuck Horn, Natural Resources Conservation Warden Supervisor for southwest Wisconsin. That’s an understatement.
According to studies extant, these wildlife atrocities are committed mostly by young men aged 15 to 22, the video game generation. Much has been written about the nihilistic violence that kids are exposed to when they play some of these games. A study by the American Psychological Association posits that “violent video games may be more harmful than violent television and movies because they are interactive, very engrossing and require the player to identify with the aggressor.” The study, authored by researchers Craig A. Anderson, Ph.D. and Karen E. Dill, Ph.D. goes on to reveal that “young men who are habitually aggressive may be especially vulnerable to the aggression-enhancing effects of repeated exposure to violent games.”
My own experience observing kids playing video games (in the Salmon, Idaho Public Library, no less) are that they always seem to involve human characters hunting down and shooting other human characters with automatic weapons, while being shot at themselves. Since it’s apparent that a small percentage of kids can actually suffer psychological problems from playing these games, an empathy deficit if you will, I think it might be an easy jump to get up from a computer game, go out and pull the trigger on an elk or a deer, and then walk away with a laugh. After all, it’s only a game.
It’s no secret that hunting numbers are down (about 8% nationally since 2001). Young folks — even in the West, where they live amongst abundant wildlife, are less and less being brought up in the traditional hunting culture that stresses firearms safety in hunter training courses, and an ethical view concerning the actual act of killing game (field dressing, the proper care of a carcass, etc.): the doctrine of “Fair Chase” and adhering to local state hunting regulations as a moral imperative.
Western newcomers are mostly ignorant — through no fault of their own — of the hunting culture; in fact, many are dead-set against it. The thrill killers give moral hunters a bad name, yet many new folks think the two groups are synonymous.
Yet, I think our four-legged friends will get a break soon, as the video game-thrill killing trend graduates to a higher plane: human beings.
Video games are mindless, as are the parents who let their kids play them.
About the Author
Bill Croke, formerly of Cody, Wyoming, is a writer in Salmon, Idaho.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (112) | Leave a comment
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Jeremy| 12.11.08 @ 9:35AM
Hey can i find a scapegoat for something that has been occurring for longer than the scapegoat has been around yes yes I can. You sir FAIL.
Leigh| 12.11.08 @ 9:46AM
The only thing mindless here is the Author and anyone that believes this article.
E. Zachary Knight| 12.11.08 @ 9:47AM
So what game were the people playing when they drove the dodo to extinction? What game were people playing when they nearly drove the American Bison to extinction? What about all the other animals that were senselessly killed in the thousands of years before games, what were those people playing?
How far did you have to stretch to make this game connection? Are you the Mr. Fantastic of scapegoating? You would have to be to make that connection.
zevgoldman| 12.11.08 @ 9:49AM
"Senselessly murdered , , ," Murder is a legal concept that in which a human being is the victim. Animals haven't yet been given the same standing as humans. With writers such as Mr. Croke at work, that time may soon be with us.
Shortt Sirket| 12.11.08 @ 9:54AM
Wow, it looks like someone was desperate to drive traffic to his site. As we all know, the best thing to do with a Troll is to ignore it. Let's not give this Troll any more attention and let him fade back to obscurity.
zel| 12.11.08 @ 10:27AM
If i was to kill an animal and then have it's head mounted on the wall and got rid of the rest of it, would that suddenly become a sensible murder? Considering that so called 'thrill killing' is nothing new, I would venture to say your link is tenuous at best. A survey was done by the MacArthur Foundation showing 97% of children today play video games (1,102 polled). You would be hard pressed to find a kid that hasn't played them. This however does not indicate the prblem stems from video games. Wanton killing of animals is nothing new. Is it disgusting? yes it is. Should it stop? I agree 100%. Did video games cause it? No, the urge to do these things stems from the very nature of humans. There is no external cause of it, however lack of education of respect for nature fails to prevent it.
Here in Florida, every so often this comes up in papers about how some guys get arrested for spotlight hunting at night for the fun of it and its rarely someone you would think of as a gamer. It's just some guys drunk as can be that wanted to shoot stuff for the hell of it.
As for games being mindless, that is your opinion and of course you have a right to it. My opinion is that you're extremly ignorant and prejudice against gamers.
Darryl J.| 12.11.08 @ 10:28AM
"Western newcomers are mostly ignorant -- through no fault of their own -- of the hunting culture; in fact, many are dead-set against it. "
Something doesn't seem right here... let me fix it.
"News Media are mostly ignorant -- which is definitely a fault of their own -- of the gaming culture; in fact, many are dead-set against it."
There you go! Although I do agree this "thrill killing" is horrible, you gaming connection seems almost forced to give you something to blame.
Peter| 12.11.08 @ 10:40AM
Sorry, but you're completely off base here. We have people like Sarah Palin who claim that Polar Bears would get used to living in the water if we took away their habitat, purely because she wants the resources underneath them, and you're off blaming Video Games...
Sounds more to me that rather than say there are a few bad people in the hunting fraternity, just as their are bad people in most other fraternities (including Video Games), you would rather point the finger at a scapegoat group.
That's not going to fix the problem, by pretending it's in someone elses' house. It's Hunters that are doing it. or kids emulating Hunters, not Video Games. Therefore Hunters should be the ones taking the responsibility, don't try to palm it off on something else.
scott| 12.11.08 @ 10:42AM
The mentally trembling ADHD patients who have thus far posted, straining to focus beyond their impotent rage, will blame the mere existence of guns before considering any symptom of parental neglect.
Jeremiah| 12.11.08 @ 10:46AM
When Vice President Dick Cheney shot his friend in the face he was a part of a hunting party that had actually driven to the killing fields in a truck carrying the quarry in small cages.
Once sufficiently far enough away from the bird pound, they let them sort of flap around like chickens and shoot them.
By the time Cheney shot his friend, they'd killed hundreds of birds.
Why?
It wasn't sport. These birds didn't try to get away. Obviously it wasn't for food.
These men aren't hunters. They're just guys who like to drink gin and kill things.
Now, I'm not making a moral argument. I just think it's pathetic and contemptible. There's something impotent and deranged about it.
Daniel| 12.11.08 @ 10:51AM
Scott,
Parental neglect has ZERO to do with video game playing. Unless you blindly label all video game playing as parental neglect. If that is the case then I won't even bother commenting on the stupidity of such a thought. As you insult the people above you who have posted in defense of video games I am going to guess that the above statement is true and your ignorance is blinding. This article is such a stretch that I can only assume the author did zero reasearch. Has zero credibility when it comes to the subjects he writes about and is proud that he wrangled so many people into giving him page hits.
Thomas| 12.11.08 @ 11:02AM
Let's not go overboard assigning blame to inanimate objects for human behavior. The human being is a predatory animal. Modern human beings are no different, except that, in a modern society, they sport a thin veneer of civilization. Any activity that features excessive violence may encourage someone who has a propensity toward violent behavior to act out those behaviors in the real world, but it doesn't cause those behaviors.
Now, thrill killing of animals is a disturbing behavior that should not be taken lightly. There is a distinct endorphin rush to destruction and killing. For some it can become an addiction and, like opiates, it takes a greater amount of the specified activity to generate the effects that these people crave. The people who are deliberately killing animals in large numbers, simply for the thrill of it, are potentially exceptionally dangerous to society. For there is no greater rush than to break the taboo on killing another human being.
Now before anyone has a stroke, most thrill destruction is an adolescent behavior and most people grow out of it. Some, though, continue this behavior and expand it both in scope and intensity. These people need to be watched. Gaming allows an outlet for adolescent violence that is least detrimental to society. And most people grow out of gaming. It becomes a secondary part of their lives and provides relaxation and an outlet for frustration.
The thrill killing of animals is disturbing sign of uncontrolled violence and should not be taken lightly. But it is not fair to attempt to blame it on video gaming.
Trialdog| 12.11.08 @ 11:07AM
Thanks you for the article Mr. Croke. As an avid hunter and fisherman, I too recognize the "thrill kill" problem, and have seen the results of it first hand. It is vile. The people who do it are the most vacuous self absorbed nitwits I have ever encountered. Yet, I don't place too much emphasis on violent video games. There is a great deal more to it than that. While I agree the games are mindless, one of my sons plays online quite a bit, and a lot more than I would prefer. But I've talked with him about it, life, success, and his future. He's pulling down A's, plays on the school football and basketball teams, will outfish anyone, and is the best shot I've ever seen when it comes to deer hunting. He is disciplined when hunting, choosing his quarry wisely and culling appropriate animals. He eats what he harvests. Near our hunting cabin is some 680 acres of land a young man inherited from his father. He also has a nice trust fund. Adjacent to that is about 90 acres owned by some older folks who lease the hunting rights to the land. The 680 acres is posted heavily. Yet, I know for a fact (don't ask how but know I wasn't a participant) that Coots and other waterfowl are shot for target practice and left to rot. I also know for a fact that there were four albino deer on the property that were shot and left for dead. On the 90 leased acres; well the lease price is high. So, the young guy willing to pay the price harvests everything. Now, to me, the problem isn't videogames, it's morons. People who were raised thinking that high numbers of harvested game per hunter is demonstrative of hunting prowness, and people who are raised to think that any animal on private property is suitable for whatever the owner decides. Proper hunting stewardship requires integrity and self discipline. These values are not something we are born with and subject to lose if we play videogames. The people whose hunting practices I describe above take young hunters with them and, as such, are passing on a despicable set of ethics to the kids.
Here's something to ponder too. In Wisconsin we are now seeing a push for deer processors to stop taking deer killed by bullets for food pantrys. It's a lead particulate concern they say. Now I've never given a deer away for a food pantry because I believe in making sure the deer I harvest are eaten by myself and my family. But here's were the problem is going to come in. I've seen many groups of hunters come in to a processor with a load of deer, say 4-7 animals, cull out one for personal processing and consumption, then direct the processor to donate the rest to the food pantry. Mind you, the hunter doesn't pay the processing fee. So the great hunters all harvested deer and feel good about their hunt. Yet, they will not eat their own harvest. Once they find out they can't dump their kills off anywhere, they'll either stop hunting or leave the kill in the field. What I'm trying to say is that it's going to get worse. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Good luck on your next outing.
Scott| 12.11.08 @ 11:32AM
Daniel,
Video games aren't being defended. Most of the posted comments are attacks. Their inference is clear: anyone who hunts is a psychopath. The ant-gun lobby is also much more devoted than any pro-video game constituency.
Fel| 12.11.08 @ 11:33AM
Scott,
So by your logic, a child which reads, plays sports, or engages in any sort of activity, is a victim of parental neglect? And you also apparently believe that the defense of a pursuit is a symptom of ADHD... Oh, and on top of that, you consider "ADHD" an insult. What's next, are you going to start calling people diabetics, cancer patients, flew-victims? Yes, well, how can one argue with such a well-adjusted gun-nut as yourself, eh? Try not let the rage of reason hit you on the way out.
Daniel| 12.11.08 @ 11:38AM
Scott,
Please point out where people are calling Hunters psychopaths? I do not see any of it. I do see where people are saying that the phenomenon described in the article has been happening for a lot longer than video games have been around. I also see someone who pointed out Dick Cheney as an example of a bad hunter that has nothing to do with video games but I do not see anyone attacking hunting. I used to hunt with my father, we followed proper guidelines and were clean, methodical, not wasteful in the slightest. I also happen to play video games. I don't see a single bit of anti gun lobbying here at all so your last comment is just filler that has no bearing on this article and the people responding to it. I also don't see a single person being derisive to hunters or the hunting culture. Unlike someone calling other people mentally trembling ADHD patients.
E. Zachary Knight| 12.11.08 @ 11:44AM
Scott,
I am having a hard time finding the comments that blame this on guns. Do you mind pointing those comments out?
As for your insinuation that gamers are victims of ADHD and that playing video games is a direct result of parental neglect, I am sorry but you are wrong. All the people I know who play video games range from kids in school to adults who hold successful careers and have families of their own. Sure there are a few who take gaming to the extreme and they neglect other aspects of their lives, but for the majority gaming is an entertainment pass time on the level of watching tv or movies or reading.
I agree that thrill killing is bad and a dirty practice. But to make a connection between that practice and video game play without any proof is just as horrible.
I enjoy hunting and encourage a lot of people to do it. It not only teaches you proper gun safety and care, but it also can teach respect for the sanctity of animal life. A person who hunts for sport has less respect for animal life than a person who hunts for food. These thrill killers are reckless in their actions and will eventually hurt someone. I find them to be on the extreme of the sport hunter side.
Kevin| 12.11.08 @ 11:56AM
A) The writer of this article is absolutely right about parents being mindless when they let their children play mature games.
B) To claim that violent video games are the cause for killing wildlife... and then to further state that kids who play mindless video games are just eventually going to go on murderous rampages... the guy must be paid per comment on this site, knowing that saying something so obtuse and ignorant would generate endless comments.
C) I'm going to go contact a Psychiatrist now. I've been playing video games for the last 25 years, most of the violent ones too. I should seek help now, before the inevitable violent rampage. Until now, until this very article, I never realized the danger I posed to society. I'll go rectify it immediately.
Scott| 12.11.08 @ 11:59AM
I agree, no one used the words hunter, psychopath, and guns in a sentence. That's why I used the word "inference".
I also consider the over-diagnosed ADHD another societal symptom of parental neglect. Many children are simply not taught to pay attention, and are given drugs to make the condition worse. This is also parental neglect, and society is paying the bill as usual.
So the guilt trip about me insulting ADHD patients as a way to skirt around guns being the actual target isn't working fellas. Try again.
E. Zachary Knight| 12.11.08 @ 12:05PM
Scott,
Again you failed to point to any quote that makes that"inference". What person and what did they say that brought you to that conclusion.
Fel| 12.11.08 @ 12:06PM
Scott, as a friendly tip, don't ever try become a spin-doctor. That was a beyond awful attempt at saving face.
Scott| 12.11.08 @ 12:16PM
Fel,
Work on your grammar, vocabulary, and originality.
Knight,
Read the comments listed above my original. I'm not going to think for you.
Also, please stop spinning the phrase "there's absolutely no relationship between video games and violence" when criticizing me. My point, if you read carefully, is that parental neglect is linked to thrill killing, constant video gaming, and most of societal ills.
G'bye fellas.
Luke Hunter| 12.11.08 @ 12:22PM
Video games don't offer instant gratification, which is something you cite in your own article as a reason behind thill killing. Now, I don't hunt, but I do see the waste of life that is happening. However, as a gamer, I can't help but laugh at your connection. To me, it seems much like the Alaskan bridge project -- the bridge to nowhere -- because that's where your connection leads to: nowhere.
Playing a video game does not grant you instant gratification. Instead, it grants you delayed gratification. Even the most "mindless" (as you might call it) shooting game has a point behind it, a plotline, just like every novel has a plotline. Just as you read a book to the end (assuming you like it) for entertainment, you play a game to the end (if you like it) for the entertainment. Game plots have their climax points, just like books. SO do movies and games.
Never, in a video game, have I killed a single enemy and felt good. I play for the experience, the story. That's what gamers play for.
Even games with very loose stories, such as boxing games, have delayed gratification. Making your selected or self-created boxer rise in ranks to the top is the goal, and that takes time.
Besides your ignorance and bias of video games, you seem to be lacking on terminology. Firstly, any scientific "evidence" you cite isn't evidence. No studies have proven the link between violent video games and violent actions. At best, they can find a correlation (though, depending on the results, it may be positive, negative, or no correlation at all). Also, in your quote from the American Psychological Association's study, it says "may." This, quite frankly, is not proof. On top of that, the use of "may" suggests that it is a guess or observation rather than correlation. Also, you fail to quote anything that says the contrary. The very essence of the interactive element of video games is what makes video games less dangerous. You have constant reminders, from the controller in your hands to background music to information displays on the TV screen, that what you are playing is, simply put, a fantasy. When a media is lacking an interactive element, such as TV shows, you have less to remind you that it's just a show, just entertainment.
Quite honestly, I'm not surprised that you are writing articles with nothing more than half-baked information, theories, and observations. One game does not justify all games. Tetris, a VERY popular game, has no violence. You simply try to put shapes consisting of 4 blocks in various patterns in lines, which is a lot harder than it sounds. You also fail to cite that the national rates of violent crimes commited has been falling for many years now (starting just around the time that the game "Doom" was released).
Now, there is a correlation here to be made. Violent video game was released, and violent crimes started to decline. The continued release of "uber-violent" video games also come with a continued decline in violent crimes. What we have here is a Negative Correlation, because while more violent media is being released, fewer violent crimes are being committed. One could draw from this that violent video games prevent violent crimes from happening.
But it's not proven. A link between the two have been found, and that's it. This link COULD be direct, where the violent media is preventing violent actions, or it could be indirect, where violent media is effecting an unknown element (or several elements), which links up with a decline in violent acts committed. A third possibility is that it's simply coincidence (for example, one correlational study showed that in areas where abortion clinics opened up, crime rates decreased).
What you're doing, sir, is making a gestalt, which is where you make a whole out of something partial. You know element A, and you have element B. In your mind, since B "causes" violence ("causes" is quoted because this claim has yet to be proven in an actual experiment), and A involves shooting and killing (a subject that you believe that element B only covers), then A is a direct result of B.
However, you seem to have not considered any other possibilities. You haven't considered that maybe access to guns may be a problem, or even what Mr. Trialdog said (I use "Mr." as a form of respect, although I will admit that I'm just taking a guess at his/her gender for the purposes of a formal title). In fact, you are so entrenched in your gestalt theory that you have failed to percieve anything else, and instead relying on a convinient scapegoat.
Let me remind you, however, that written word was once something along the lines of "evil." Forms of music have been classified as "evil" (Rock & Roll, anyone?). New media always picks up flak, because it's an easy blame.
And, lastly, I would like to point out that any famous shootings (Columbine, for example) or killings that have had video games cited as evidence for cause really can't float. Using it as a defense works against older jury members, becoming more effective as education level drops. Instead, however, these tragedies happen because of society. Columbine happened because the two students at hand were true social outcasts. They managed to gain a stockpile of weaponry and ammunition because they lived in a suburban neighborhood, where they had the money to buy the items and the ignorance of the parents to keep their stash hidden.
If you want to try to connect two things, here's what I'd advise:
1) Don't use correlation studies that prove nothing definite.
2) Don't use one example as a stereotype for all.
3) Don't SAY that you're making a big leap from element A to element B.
4) You're a journalist. People read this. Biases are okay (it's media), but at least do enough research and cite enough evidence to back up your point. And, lastly...
5) Don't get schooled in scientific studies and psychology from an 18-year-old kid who's taken one college-level psychology course.
I'd love to say more, but, unlike yourself, I do not troll on purpose. I argue what I know, speak on things that I am knowledgeable enough on, and listen when there is a topic that I know nothing or not enough on (hence, why I didn't talk as much as Mr. Trialdog about hunting, as I have no experience or knowledge beyond basic information).
And, again, although I agree that thrill killing is a crime against nature and a complete waste, I believe that your conclusion on the cause is absurd. As absurd, in fact, that if I were to randomly and unexpectedly start making threats of assault and barter on you, it would be less absurd than your own conclusion, because trolls have some reason beyond what they say, but what you said in your article about video games being the cause is a half-baked gestalt conclusion.
Signed,
Luke Hunter
Fel| 12.11.08 @ 12:26PM
Scott,
OMG, sowwy, I had no idea this was aboot GWAMMA!
Oh, wait... it wasn't. Tsk, tsk, was that another god-awful attempt at playing the spin-doctor?
Daniel| 12.11.08 @ 12:30PM
Scott,
It's on you to clarify. You make the accusation, you back it up. Otherwise your ideas get dismissed (and rightly so.) You state in your last post your original intent; "My point, if you read carefully, is that parental neglect is linked to thrill killing, constant video gaming, and most of societal ills. " Well, if that was your point, you weren't very clear about it what so ever. So claiming that it was your original point and none of us got it is very clever, but wrong. And to say this; "That's why I used the word "inference". " Then pardon me, let me rephrase, where did anyone "infer" that hunters were psychopaths? Using the word call, which could have the same meaning was incorrect on my part. So, other than Cheney (a psychopath.) Where did anyone else "infer" this? People were pointing out that thrill killing (a psychopathic activity) has been around for a longer time than video games. No one ever said all hunters were thrill killers (thus, psychopaths.) Your back tracking and vague wording leads me to dismiss you even more.
E. Zachary Knight| 12.11.08 @ 12:36PM
I did read all those somments and none seemed to "infer" that hunters are gun toting psychopaths. You are the one who came to the conclusion. Please enlighten me in how you made it. It is not my job to justify your position. That is your job.
Yes, parental neglect is a serious issue. It is often one of the key factors in a lot of problems faced by kids. But video game pay is not a problem. It is a hobby and a pass time on the same level of other entertainment pursuits. Any links between game play and violent behavior are correlative and not causative. That is the problem I have with this article. The writer and you are trying to make game play to some evil practice that will start kids off in a path of thrill killing animals and eventually humans. There is no proof of such a path.
The author does not make any reference to the hundreds and thousands of years that people have senselessly killed animals. It is a practice that has existed long before games, yet games are the reason behind it. I fail to see that connection.
LujanD| 12.11.08 @ 1:03PM
Damn EZK, are you blind? It's right here:
Comment at 12.11.08 @ 8:47AM -- "So what game were the peo(GRAWWWWRG HUNTERS = PSYCHOS RRRAAAARRRGH *mouth foam*)ple playing when they drove the dodo to extinction?"
We should totally ban this guy from GP. *nods nods*
E. Zachary Knight| 12.11.08 @ 1:11PM
LujanD,
That made my day. Thanks. :)
Rodrigo| 12.11.08 @ 1:13PM
Videogames: created almost 30 years ago. Still new.
Violent videogames: Their boom were in the 90´s. Very new.
Illegal hunting: Since men started to create laws. Long time ago (and it was not for protection of animals).
Thrill killing: Since men discovered animals can be killed. Very loooooong time ago.
Scapegoats: Since pseudo-journalism need something to blame about any issue that don´t have any knowledge or evidence. Still in use.
LujanD| 12.11.08 @ 1:19PM
EZK,
Lol, glad to hear it. :)
Derek P| 12.11.08 @ 1:24PM
Is this article a joke? Seriously? This statement "...these wildlife atrocities are committed mostly by young men aged 15 to 22, the video game generation," is sheer laziness. So I guess that no one currently over the age of 22 EVER played a video game? I am 37 and starting playing them even before the original Atari came out before I was in double digits. This sounds like standard: "Young people are idiots quite often and do stupid things quite often BUT they are all doing (insert objectionable activity here) that I don't particularly like/agree with/understand (take your choice) so yes, THAT must be the reason. Let's blame that." It can't simply possibly be that people aged 15-22 are just stupid quite often and just do stupid things can it? No, we all have an axe to grind so it can't be that simple. Total rubbish this is.
Derek P| 12.11.08 @ 1:30PM
DOH! I forgot! The last line of the article, "Video games are mindless, as are the parents who let their kids play them." Should've been the disclaimer on the top so we know before reading where this is author is coming from. So I guess the game my 5 year son is playing to help him recognize and sound out the alphabet is mindless? Based on this rubbish article yes it is! And of course that makes me mindless as well!! At least that confirms what my wife has been saying for 18 years.........
Brandon K| 12.11.08 @ 1:49PM
Disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself Bill Croke.
Dave Hillson| 12.11.08 @ 1:59PM
What about when the romans had animals (lions etc) shipped over to fight in amphitheatres?
Did they do it because video games made them? wow. They were more technologically advanced than i thought.
Glad that you completely forgot about all the evidence that points to your 'theory' being a load of rubbish.
Chris W| 12.11.08 @ 1:59PM
An amusing thing to think about... Video games get a lot of crap for "promoting the acceptance of violence", but I think that we can intrinsically blame hunters for that. There is a much closer parallel between shooting a deer and shooting a human than there is between clicking a mouse and shooting a human.
Congratulations, mr. Croke, I officially nominate you and all others who condone hunting in any form as the reason why things such as school shootings occur.
Keith Watson| 12.11.08 @ 2:13PM
Why not blame it on gun ownership? You're assuming that the people who do this play video games but you know for a fact that every one of them owns a gun.
Eric Elzy | 12.11.08 @ 2:14PM
Luke Hunter,
I really liked what you said, and I just wanted to let you know that it should be the article instead.
James G. | 12.11.08 @ 2:20PM
"Video games are mindless, as are the parents who let their kids play them."
Thanks for the insulting article American Spectator. I'm sure other game players appreciate your ignorant bigotry.
Insanelystupid| 12.11.08 @ 2:22PM
Hunters should be hunted down and shot because hunting is immoral. Even a two-cell zygote animal has rights!
However, I support abortion, because you cannot get more "canned hunt" than that bloboflesh in utero! Even a post-born human isn't really a person so we should be able to kill and eat it. Yum!
Hunting is murder, killing humans is immoral, unless it's hunters and gun owners who own guns legally so we should make more laws that criminals will ignore. Seig heil gun control!
(I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THE PREVIOUS WAS PARODY!!!!)
Stu Pidaso| 12.11.08 @ 2:25PM
I thought the article rocked!!! Of course my name says it all........
Ben Y.| 12.11.08 @ 2:29PM
I know all you look forward to is watching the potato fields grow in Idaho but really.
Get over yourself. Generalizations like the one you call an article aren't going to stop psychopaths from shooting up animals illegally.
Also remember. Crazy people were on the planet way before the invention of video games.
Jay | 12.11.08 @ 2:37PM
So.....now we're blaming THIS on Videogames as well? We cant seem to settle on a stereotye for gamers....are we shut-in nerds or serial killers with a Hobby? I've never chilled with any group of people who after we get done say...playing GTA 4, get up and say "Well that was fun! Lets go shoot a Moose!" This article is a big load of excrement and anyone with half a brain can see that. Maybe we should focus less on these guesses and theories on why they do it, and do more to catch'em and put'em anyway.
If this was the 80's, he'd be blaming Metal Music......
Terry| 12.11.08 @ 3:09PM
"Video games are mindless, as are the parents who let their kids play them. "
So, you're the nation's authority on how parents raise their children? What about the video games that teach kids how to identify letters and numbers? Or how they are being used in schools in a positive manner?
Or what about the gamers out there that grew up playing video games and turned into well-adjusted adults? I've been playing video games since I was 4 (I'm now 31), and I am married, have two children (who are not mindless, violent drones), own a house, have a well-paying full-time job, and have never committed a crime or act of violence against a fellow human or creature in my life. Hell, when I was teen, my dad took me hunting, and I couldn't bring myself to shoot a deer.
Lumping video games, children, and parents into the "mindless" category is insulting. But, judging from the extensive research and investigative work you did for this article, I should probably take what you said with a grain of salt and move on.
It's just sad that there are people out there like you, who are quick to blame someone or something else for the behavior of a social deviant.
scott| 12.11.08 @ 3:39PM
TROLL! Seriously? If you actually believe what you've written here, you're quite possibly the most misinformed ignoramus I've ever seen.
Carl| 12.11.08 @ 3:40PM
Sir. You are either educated enough or have the experience to call any shots in this matter. You are just a thrill seeker in your own rights, to see if anyone abides.
I would find it in everyones interest that you studied the subject and then return with a new statement. Anything other is witchhunt based upon dreamed up smoking guns.
I won't salute you. No Sir.
Ken| 12.11.08 @ 3:49PM
Can you name one POPULAR game that has you killing animals? And by the way, GTA IV doesn't count since pigeons are annoying disease bags.
Jeff| 12.11.08 @ 3:55PM
Oh yes, EVERY video game is played by 15-22 year olds and involves shooting down other virtual people and causes increased aggression.
By that stretch, I could say EVERY hunter lives in a mountain shack, is extremely anti-social, wears only the skins of his own kills.
An offensive stereotype? Yes, they both are. Do some research before you go hunting for scapegoats.
Perhaps Western-newcomers know little about the hunting way of life. Before attacking video games, and video gamers, do some research of your own, beyond simply Googling "violence" and "video games."
Austin_Lewis| 12.11.08 @ 4:20PM
Video games? REALLY? That's what you want to blame this on? Video games?
You want to do some electroshock therapy on the people who are caught thrill killing? Maybe treat them with a little bit of lead and arsenic? Leeches? Any other outdated and useless ideas you got there chief?
There are bad people in every group. Sure, there are a lot of hunters who absolutely never waste what they kill (I know my uncle makes about 2 tons of Deer Jerkey a year after we're all done hunting). I'd say the vast majority don't waste a thing. But, there's always someone out there who's just naturally an asshole, wasteful, etc, and their parents never taught them any better. I know when I was little, my dad taught me never to hunt anything I wouldn't eat, and never to waste anything from what I did hunt.
The real problem here is lack of parenting, not videogaming. Of course, the average videogamer is more intelligent than you Mr. Crock (oh, Croke, sorry), so this may be your snarky passive-aggressive way of getting back at them.
JC| 12.11.08 @ 5:29PM
"According to studies extant, these wildlife atrocities are committed mostly by young men aged 15 to 22, the video game generation."
Wait...do I see a confusion of correlation with causation in my journalism?
This is not really the right way to go about making conclusions. If playing video games is a popular activity for a large portion of 15-22 year olds, you cannot use it to prove a direct cause of an activity (thrill killing) that is only done by a very small part of the same group.
The "killing" nature of video games is a reflection of the raw, violent human nature, and not a producer of it.
"Men's natures are alike, it is their habits that carry them far apart. " -Confucius
That just sounds like junk science. It would be as bad to say say that high schools and colleges are responsible for thrill killers since a lot of 15 to 22-year olds go to these schools. You could've named any other activity that is common with this age group, but you didn't indicate why you chose the activity of playing video games.
Melvin Udall| 12.11.08 @ 5:58PM
The author is myopic and lazy. He mistakes real problems within our overall culture with one specific thing he doesn't happen to like. It is only slightly more intellectual than those who would blame it on guns. I expect better than this from conservative thinkers.
DaveS| 12.11.08 @ 6:40PM
There are real crimes being committed, and we are asked to be upset over a few game hunting violations? Boo hoo.
Mark Diehr| 12.11.08 @ 6:49PM
"Forty-six dead Canada geese were found stuffed into a dumpster in Soda Springs, Idaho.
...
Video games are mindless, as are the parents who let their kids play them."
How on earth did you get from point A to point B?
Ben Moore | 12.11.08 @ 8:35PM
Wow, Croke is a perfect example of just how pathetic people are getting. There have been ZERO studies that conclusively link games to violencel. Not only that, but this happened way before video games.
Oh, and about your idiotic "games are mindless" comment, you couldn't be more off. Many games stimulate the mind, and unlike violence, they HAVE been scientifically proven to be educational.
You Croke, are a terrible, sad, and pathetic excuse for a human. Have a nice day!
AndrewS| 12.11.08 @ 9:11PM
Basic summary: DERP I'M AN IGNORANT HACK WHO'S NEXT ON THE 'VIDEO GAMES R BAD' BANDWAGON
More in depth:
The primary example of thrill killing used, even in this article, states NOWHERE that those individuals actually played video games. The only evidence of any connection between the two is the ages of some of the individuals involved in the two activities. That's barely a correlation, and it's miles from showing any kind of causation. The most reliable studies of the effects on violence patterns of violent video games indicate that an increase violent behavior can accompany playing of violent video games. What people who are quick to bash video games ignore is that those same studies show that the MAGNITUDE of the increase is on the "punching your friends arm" level, a very far cry (no pun intended) from thrill killing, let alone the violent rampages that he asserts are coming in the second to last line. Furthermore, the basis of the correlation he asserts is utterly false: according to his own article, most thrill killers are in the 15-22 years old range. However, the age of the average gamer is in the MID THIRTIES, completely making his point unsound, if already invalid.
The sad thing is that he makes a potentially good explanation for thrill killing as being rooted in cultural upheaval of traditional hunting practice. If that had been the entirety of his claim, it would not be so blatantly idiotic. However, by unsoundly and downright falsely attributing the thrill killing to video games, he exposes himself as the stupid, talentless hack that he is.
The last line, on an additional note, had no justification and is an infuriatingly offensive comment. Had the author any actual knowledge of video games he certainly would have known that video games are quite far from as much; but in fact are very considerably more mentally engaging than television or movies and the like (not that I have a problem with those.) In fact the last statement is a complete and utter contradiction to the earlier point he made about people being worried about the violent-behavior inducing behavior of video games, exclusively BECAUSE they require more interaction than other forms of entertainment.
So to the author: You fail at journalism, reason, logic, pseudo-journalism, knowledge, and decency.
Do us all a favor and, next time your incompetent mind decides to author a column on any such topic on which you have absolutely no knowledge, stay your hands.
AndrewS| 12.11.08 @ 9:16PM
Also, fellow gamers: when an idiot calls all video games mindless, there's no need to go directly to the educational games for young children. There's no valid argument that would put games like Half-life or Gears of War or Call of Duty or Bioshock into the 'mindless' category. Not all games have engrossing or complicated story lines, but that is hardly compelling.
Roy| 12.11.08 @ 10:33PM
Damn, I play World of Warcraft for hours and days at a time, and I was never nearly as self righteous about it as a lot of the other gamers here.
I'm not going to respond to most of the comments - one guy above says video games don't offer "instant gratification". That may be true, but what they do offer is butt easy gratification. I don't know about others, but when I slide close to the edge of addiction, that's pretty much what I'm addicted to: the feeling of accomplishment a video game can give you for doing jack squat other than sitting there making minor hand motions with a small degree of hand-eye coordination for four hours. As long as you keep a sense of perspective about that, though, it's definitely a good way to stay entertained.
I don't agree that most games are about "nihilistic violence", to the contrary most of them give a highly romanticized moral context to the violence. Others make clear that the violence is not "real", eg games like "Mortal Kombat"(showing my age) where you punch somebody's head off showering the screen in blood, and then he gets up and starts round 2.
Some though I really can't avoid the label "nihilistic". Back in the day I watched the movie "Natural Born Killers". This was allegedly a "satire", but I saw fairly little satiric about it. It made heroes out of the serial killers. Yes, yes I'm sure this proves that I am a hopeless philistine to some, but I really don't give a hoot about the opinions of people who think that way - the fact is, I would not want a screwed up 14 year old watching that movie. Some video games give me the same vibe.
von| 12.12.08 @ 3:55AM
behold the Jack Thompson 2.0
Rodrigo| 12.12.08 @ 10:57AM
Well, website "What they Play" have now proven that Mr. Croke is a liar, or is very confused. Have fun:
http://www.whattheyplay.com/blog/2008/12/11/video-games-blamed-for-animal-atrocities/
"interestingly, a call to the Salmon Idaho Public Library revealed that they do not, in fact, carry video games which obviously casts some doubt over how thorough Croke has really been in his "research" for this piece. "We do not carry games, just books, DVDs, CDs, and books on tape," said the nice lady who answered the phone."
Jack| 12.12.08 @ 2:08PM
Say Mr. Croke, how many video games does Sarah Palin play? Considering her history of hunting from from helicopters and leaving the meat to rot on the carcass she must have played a ton of REALLY violent games, right? Nope, probably not one. Your theory is utter bunk. Conservatives died in this country decades ago, and they've been replaced with mindless, terrified children who reach out to any theory to justify their biases. Utterly pathetic.
Jack| 12.12.08 @ 2:10PM
PS: Do you know what nihilism is? Most games involve war/fighting/killing in the name of good vs evil. I don't suppose you're against all war, so why cry out about simulated war? I doubt you have a problem with military propaganda or the war in Iraq, so what's the problem with a simulation of World War Two, or a human effort to stop the advance of an alien menace?
Jack Mahoggoff| 12.12.08 @ 4:19PM
God I hope old man Crooke reads all of these comments! Talk about a forkin' beat down........ he will wish that he was a red headed step child after reading all of these, hell maybe even Tina Turner......I haven't seen a beat down like this since Dukakis/Mondale '84.......
Bill| 12.12.08 @ 5:44PM
"the feeling of accomplishment a video game can give you for doing jack squat other than sitting there making minor hand motions with a small degree of hand-eye coordination for four hours"
You mean like playing Chess?
Azure| 12.13.08 @ 6:34AM
I like how he writes this huge article, tries to make a point, however ignorant it may be, and then ends his post with "YO MOMMA SO STUPID SHE LET YOU PLAY VIDEO GAMES!"
This guy is a pretty good troll.
Bob| 12.13.08 @ 6:43AM
Y'know what's really mindless? Waiting in a blind all day to blow away some poor animal with a load of buckshot you barely even have to aim.
When did we let rednecks get so self righteous?...Oh yeah, the bush administration.
Evan Davies | 12.13.08 @ 9:55PM
okay, before I start to be sensible in this response, I need to get one thing off my chest:
Fuck. You.
now that we've got that out of the way, I'll tell a bit about how posting something like this makes you look like a complete idiot.
First off, having seen kids play one game involving shooting does not constitute proper research. Next time, do some PROPER research before you make yourself look like an idiot in front of the entire world.
Yes, some games involve shooting. Many others don't. Even the games tat do have shooting in them probably will not cause somebody to shoot an animal or person.
I have no doubt that at some point in your life, you have either watched a movie or show that involved violence at some point in your life. By your logic, this means that you yoursef are likely to go out and commit acts of violence against other people, after all, it's only a tv show or movie. You sicken me. You've seen voilence. I blame you for violent crime. After all, you watched voilent TV, you must be a violent person, it's only logical. You should be locked up for being such a violent person.
Did that last paragraph seem a little illogical to you? Good! Now you now how stupid you're own article made you look!
Maybe, before you go and post stuff like this on the internet, you should PLAY a video game. Thanks for being a retard! Feel free to contact me so I can continue to laugh at your idiocy in the future!
-Evan
Lert| 12.14.08 @ 8:47AM
That's why games nowadays carry age indications. Ofcourse, it comes down to the parents to enforce these. As it comes down to the parents to teach their kids the proper value of a life - be it animal or human - and to ensure that they don't grow up into thrillkillers.
I'm a 32 year old gamer. Quite an enthousiastic one. I played UT2004 religiously, with my clan. I play TF2 more probably than I should. I play a lot of Fallout 3. All are shooters, all involve shooting other human beings with guns (And aliens and zombies and mutants in the case of UT2004 and Fallout 3) but I am in no way a violent person, outside of those games. In fact, I get upset when I accidentally hit a duck with my moped while driving to work.
Michelle| 12.14.08 @ 9:44PM
Too bad you didn't look into reality first, or you would know that the biggest gaming age grops is over 30. And you blamed a situation that has existed for centuries in all hunting regions, and gotten worse with the advent of improved weapons and incrasing city populations over the past century in particlar, on a medium that has existed for a few decade.
Oh, and there are no videogames where you say you saw them. So, you're making stuff up, citing people whose opinions have been scientifically disproven, and poriting connections that facts counter. Go figure.
Paul| 12.16.08 @ 12:57AM
I have to agree with most of the posters here and say that the relationship you are trying to draw between thrillkillers and gamers is ludicrous. Like the poster said, how can you compare gamers to an activity that has been going on for probably thousands of years. There will always be and has forever been, idiots out there that get perverse joy in killing animals for the joy of killing animals. Gamers and video game playing have absolutely no connection. I don't play video games, but even I can see you as the toothless old man tottering around mumbling about the young whippersnappers and how you walked to school uphill both ways for 60 miles in a driving blizzard.
Forewarned76| 12.22.08 @ 4:57PM
Hey Croke!
http://www.crispygamer.com/comics/backward/Backward-2008-12-12.aspx
Durin | 12.30.08 @ 3:57AM
Heh, bite me a nurgling. O'course, today I play Morrowind, killing lots of nix-hounds, so tomorow I'll go to the nearest forest to kill a couple of rabbits? Wonderfull! Can someone say, did this Croke ever touch any games before writing such a rubbish?
Oliver H. Bark| 1.6.09 @ 6:24PM
Well, if a queen bee dies, another will take its place. I'm assuming Mr. Croke here is going to become the next Jack Thompson. Firing a gun in a video game and firing a gun in real life are as close as my arse is from the dark side of Europa.
I myself play these 'violent video games', and the only animals I have killed are rats, and that is only because nobody is going to stay at a caravan site plagued with rats now, are they? It's business.
The world's problems, such as murder, corruption, war, rape and so on were around a lot longer than video games - You can't blame World War II on Adolf H. playing too much Call of Duty, can you?
Just because they have killed something for sport does not mean they are obsessive gamers. It does not mean they are even normal gamers. It means they're just people who want some fun. I myself do not support the idea of "Thrill Killing" - I only shoot at live targets for a purpose. When I have no purpose but want to shoot, I focus on pictures of Miley Cyrus or Sarah Palin instead.
In short, your connection is the stupidest thing since Disney took on Miley Cyrus.
Oh, and THE FLOOD WAS HERE.
Kevin | 1.26.09 @ 9:17AM
Wow. Talk about making a scapegoat. "Video games are mindless as are the parents who let their kids play them."? Really now. So what about The entire Wii system? Wii Fit? How about all the language coach games?What about all the other educational games out there? You sir are an idiot.
I agree that some games are made intentionally ridiculous with ill-content, the problem isn't with those games. It's with the mindless parents that let them have it.
I work at Gamestop, and day in and out I see parents (more mothers than fathers, usually) let their kid(s) [I'm talking 9-12 here) purchase these games. Often without even looking at the REASON it's rated M. I had a lady cut me off while I was trying to explain the game and say "I don't care just sell it to him". THESE people are the reason modern morality is in the toilet. Parents today don't assume enough responsibility to instill basic morality in their children.
Why some people are trying to pass the buck away from irresponsible parenting is beyond me.
In my opinion, the people that mindlessly slaughter animals like this should be shot themselves, but that's just me. Eye for an Eye right?
Kevo32A| 2.24.09 @ 7:00AM
i was going to make a scathing comment abnout how wrong you are but seeing as i cannot find even one comment that agrees with your supposition, i'm going to assume you've realised how wrong you are and hope you move on.
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Preston Williams| 4.2.10 @ 12:57PM
I don't think thrill killing is right. How would we feel if we were killed for fun
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